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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My quest to breed an argent tri is coming along nicely, and my reading and asking around has made me quite optimistic about my chances of achieving goals. The Finn in charge of the English language forum on Hiifoorumi (Finnish mouse forum) agrees that it is possible, which confirms my ideas on the subject.

Lacey carries the tri factor, whatever that consists of. Genetically, she would be aa bb Cc^h D/*pp with the tri factor, whatever that might be presumably causing the champagne to to revert to the other shades, with a marking gene that looks like banded. It could even be that it's some other set of genes; I just don't know.

If the tri factor is added at the c locus, then it causes the champagne genotype to revert as seen to show banding in darker hues; the points are seen only in part on the nose, and appear to be missing on the feet and tail though that could also be the result of the pink eyed dilution. The banding may not be from a banding gene, it may be an artifact of the tri factor. the light pink eyes are probably because of the c^h combining with the pp, thought, again, it could be the tri factor.

The sire of both meeces in this pairing is an argent who carries the tri factor, and and an agouti from the same litter. They both may have carried marking genes. The generation before that I mated an argent buck to a marked beige/brown/black tricolor doe. .

Please pick apart my reasoning; I am only interested in information, and I freely admit that I am still flailing around looking for a reasonable way to explain and maybe predict what is going on.

The thought also had occurred to me that this could be an epigenetic phenomenon. It's subject I have only the most passing of familiarity with, but it's an area I'm interested in. The Cattanach's Translocation idea seems to explain a lot of what I see happening with the tricolours, however, so I am using what I have taken from my reading and trying to apply it to this problem.
 

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There isn't a single tricolor gene or factor. It's a combination of three things:

  • 1) Splashed (Spl/*)
    2) two lower c-dilutes which are not both PEW (ce/ch, cch/cch, ch/c etc)
    3) some form of white spotting

Since it's not a single recessive Mendelian factor, it isn't possible to carry it per se, but you can carry two of the three elements (1 and 2). You can also be genotypically 3 without it showing because the expression of 3 is dependent on the existence 2.

That said, getting an argente tricolor is difficult because of the linkage of the C- and P- loci. It's not impossible, just difficult. Statistically you'll need to breed hundreds or thousands of litters before a mouse will emerge who has all three qualities above plus C- and P-linkage.

Tricolor as we know it doesn't exist in Finland so they may not be taking into account the linkage of C- and P- and the ways that splashed can be there but not expressed due to the absence of two c-locus dilutes which are not both PEW.

When/if you get a mouse who is A/* c*/c* Spl/* p/p s/s (argente tricolor) be sure to post pictures. Good luck! :)

P.S. You're leaving the "e" off of argente. It's no big deal, but leaving the "e" off accidentally is something I know all too much about! :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I checked my work before I posted. The research that I believed was necessary was done, and I do believe I am right in this instance. I was told that my yellow meeces couldn't have come from the same stock as my beige to black tris. They did. I was also told that I couldn't get tris that had a tan belly, and that happened too. I even gave up trying to make blue tris after 2 1/2 years of failure, and, hey; you know what? those have finally come around as well. (I took some pix last night of one blue tri, will post soon. I just found that my prime tri stud, Adamant, has produced a litter off of Seelie, diluted blue satin doe.

My argent tris, if you please, are not as you specified. They will be a/a b/b C/c^h D/* pp. The tri factor will create the linkage if it is not already there. It is not required for both locii of the C locus in order for a dilution to occur, especially with the addition of the tri factor. Show me geneaolgies that express the linkage you talk about. I would be interested in other ways of creating interesting looking mousies.

A Cattanach's type of insertion changes the way colors and markings are expressed. Most people only show the most vividly marked mousies they produce. I show them all; if you can explain it to me better that would be fine. The examples I have researched include material that is inverted with respect to the rest of the c-locus, which results in things that are seemingly random, possibly due to the reversal of the segment that was inserted. The process explains all the phenomena I've described in my line of unusual mousies. The Finns call this the flecked gene, and also state that that type is also a mosaic/chimeric phenomenon.

quote="Rapunzel"]Cattanach's is one tricky fellow and I know even less about it... However, I see what you mean now, your mouse is a champagne carrying c^h and with the tri factor.

If the gene in question is Cattanach's, it's located in the X-chromosome and shouldn't have any linking left to eye colour. C-locus is linked to P, but you already seem to have a c-recessive combined to p. I can't see any problem producing an argente-based tri. If I'm understanding correctly, you'd only need to mate this champagne tri to an argente male - a baby inheriting A from its father and a c-recessive & Cattanach's from its mother should be argente tri. Or?[/quote]

Sometimes science is obscured and only illuminated by intuition. One then follows down that intuition until the a theory is formulated, definitively proven, proven false, or discarded as a dead end or it is decided to be something unknowable and/or unprovable.

We're working here!
 

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Can you show me what a "flecked" mouse looks like? I don't know if I've ever seen one...

You can read some about the p- and c- linkage here: http://www.informatics.jax.org/wksilver ... r4-2.shtml

Or, if you look at the chromosome under a microscope, you see that the c and p loci are right next to each other, on chromosome 7. They're inherited together, which is what "being linked" means.

Since Splashed (a key ingredient for many tricolors) has never been described in terms of its expression in coat color by any lab, I fear we may be using entirely different vocabulary to possibly describe the same thing (like the blind men and the elephant). I'm using the vocabulary endemic to the ECMA, where it is represented Spl/*. A few fanciers in the US and Europe came up with this denotation together and it is used for convenience and simplicity. To be honest though, I'm not understanding most of what you've written.

Instead of getting further mired in terms that probably neither of us will agree to, I will say I wish you luck and do want to see pictures of whatever you "create." :)

One note, first:
My argent tris, if you please, are not as you specified. They will be a/a b/b C/c^h D/* pp.
Argente anything has to be argente, and that means having at least one "A" on the A-locus. The mouse you described above will not be ticked, no matter what other genes are introduced or linked to each other, because it has no "A" on the A locus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The reversion of dilution is a key element in any tricolour; reversion from diluted hue to less diluted hue and on and on in to full hues of whatever that mousie carries. Dilution of agouti results in anything from the chocolate agouti agouti and all the way through the most diluted ends of the spectrum, where we find individual meeces who can be described only in very complex terms and which very few folks breed on purpose.

Whether or not there is a Splashed gene is pointless. The map is not the territory. Eventually someone will describe all the factors that occur in a phenomenon and then maybe we will fill out the rest of our mousie alphabet. Personally, my thinking tends towards thinking that, since c and p are already in the same segment of genetic material, it makes it more likely that linkage will happen as a matter of course in the presence of extra material loaded into that area.

To make matters even weirder, I now have read that the segment of genetic material from an X Chromosome was stuck in backwards! And there's a chance that my silvered fawn doe might just be a simulated silver fawn I bred a yellow doe I got before I learned she carried tri; it would appear that almost anything that can happen with color and markings in the presence of the tri factor will eventually happen. There are 'counting' mechanisms at play here. And they appear to work sort of like a biochemical slot machine.

Quoted from Hiifoormii, Rapunzel says:

Ah! Then it's quite possibly flecked gene, though unfortunately I don't know much about it, having only recently heard about it from a British judge/breeder Dave Bumford.

According to what I understood. It's inherited as part of a-locus, but it produces flecked markings combined with any c-recessive. So it acts as if it was a c-locus gene.

You should find pics of flecked mice on US websites, I've seen them as Dave showed me. I should ask him what the gene is actually called, the MGI is sooooo complicated to use it drives me nuts sometimes trying to find something...

moustress said:
The white markings appear to be essential, or else one gets individuals with swirling, variegated or mottled looking coats.
Just out of curiosity, do they look something like this?

[/quote]

End quote.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK, I see where things got confused; The argent tris would be AabbCcDpp. Normally this would be an argent. With the tri factor, oh, wait a minute!! I just had a brainstorm!! They would be both!! There may be two different genetic pathways for this type of tri. Some dilution factors can work in reverse. Thank you thank you thank you Jack!
 

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Yeah, sometimes the simplest things are what trip us up because they're easy to overlook. I remember one time asking myself why you couldn't get an extreme black tan, when the answer should have been obvious to me! Once it hit me, I was like, "Oh. Duh!" :lol:

Every kind of reversion that I've experienced happens on the C-locus only, which is why having a C-dilution of some sort is necessary. Would you agree?

I am kinda confused about where your quotes end and the Finnish folks begin and what you're asking and what they're asking you. :oops:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
What I think I see now is that , in the presence of the tri factor colors revert in ways that are specific to the color type and the order of the sequence. Agouti dilutes in the presence of many different factors. Cinnamon, argent, chinchilla, and other diluted forms of agouti all occur anyway without the tri factor. It is also possible for that process to work in reverse, and that comes in more than one form. There are recognized extreme dilution factors on more than one of the locii we speak of in breeding fancy meeces. There are also reverse factors that can be observed, but are rare, I would suppose because they just throw in more uncertainty in the process, and most folks don't want that when breeding for show standards.

So, c^e dilutes, a^e concentrates, and I will bet my silk pajamas that there are modifiers that can be noodled out in most, if not all, types of trackable color. Again, I keep saying, the map is not the territory. So much more we learn that Everything We Know is Wrong. Modifiers don't have to be in the DNA alone; they can be in many other forms of tranmissible or acquired genetic material. Or they can be in the environment.

I was reading last might about a guy who committed suicide because he was heckled and ridiculed over published work that reported his results of tests with a type of toad, the midwife toad in which he showed that the toads change their preference of mating place, location and environment where eggs mature, and physical features that are used in mating (sticky pads on the from feet of males), and that this process changes over a period of two or three generations, and can be seen to change back again when the toad is offered a wetter environment.

His work is being reexamined and illuminated by the advance of understanding of epigenetics. Standards and consistency of scientific vetting of published work was not the same in the first half of the 20th century as they are now. Lamarck was right in so many ways.

Jack, I read something you said about mousies growing bigger when raised at lowered temps, and I wondered how that could be true, but now even stranger things than that seem probable. I need to find out if there has been a rectified examination of the fancy mouse (show type), the American fancy mouse (more like the Swedish show type), and the wild house mouse to see just what the difference really is between those three types.

I am trying to find a used copy of The Encyclopedia of Genetics by Brenner. Newer editions sell for about $1500. or more, but I'm sure I could make do wil a slightly out of date version. Either that or I might be able to get access through a friend of mine who works at the University of MInnesota as a librarian. Access to it online is very spendy.
 

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Mouse genetics is a complicated subject, and there are exceptions to almost everything.

Cinnamon, argent, chinchilla, and other diluted forms of agouti all occur anyway without the tri factor. It is also possible for that process to work in reverse, and that comes in more than one form. There are recognized extreme dilution factors on more than one of the locii we speak of in breeding fancy meeces. There are also reverse factors that can be observed, but are rare, I would suppose because they just throw in more uncertainty in the process, and most folks don't want that when breeding for show standards.
Yeah, cinnamon, argente, chinchilla, blue agouti, etc., are all diluted forms of agouti. There are dozens of kinds of agouti-based dilutions. What most mouse people (see below) mean when they say that a dilution has reverted, though, is that a c-locus dilute has reverted to non-dilute (C) under the influence of a transgenic gene or genes (such as Splashed). For example, on this mouse:



...some of the beige parts (ce) have reverted back to C (full-color, i.e. black) under the influence of Spl/*.

See if you can find the book(s) at a library using Interlibrary Loan. That's how I get all my lab books. They're ridiculously expensive if you buy them but free on ILL! :p

I think there is as much difference between fancy (show) mice, petstore mice, and wild mice as there is between a chihuahua, a beagle, and a Great Dane. They're all the same species but have different physiologies and biologies due to thousands of years/generations of selective breeding.

Honestly, much of what you're saying seems to be in another language to me but a lot does make sense. I'm not used to your way of talking about it. There are clubs around the world who have similar ways of discussing genetics so that we can all understand what each other is saying. For my sake, I wish you were involved with a club of some sort and were familiar with the more-or-less uniform language we use, because I have a feeling we're talking about some of the same things. I say this not because I'm biased and want everybody to join a club (although I am of course, lol) but because when people speak the same language, it's easier for everybody to communicate and learn.
 

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I think Moustress is saying that an enviromental factor can also influence the colour on mice? (Unless i'm totally stupid)

This could certainly be true if you were using c(h) as a c locus gene to create tri's, it is well known they enviromental factors influence darkness of points etc.

I am finding this thread interesting... please continue

W xx
 

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I've never seen a picture of a ticked tri mouse... would be interesting to see.

Moustress, if you are planning on attempting to create argente tri's, what c locus gene will be working with the splash gene?
I have a friend on another forum who is going to attempt to creat argente cream tri's, so he will obviously be using the cch gene.

W xx
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I've c^ch turns all the different colors into ticked varieties with various levels of hue, none of which were terribly impressive, with the exception of the satin chinchilla to agouti tri. I haven't seen a blue ticked tri yet, but, I'm sure it'll come around in due time. When I started with Bonus, who was a marked long haired beige doe, I was given very little information as to how this whle thing works, so I flailed around doing everything I could think of, and thus I have lines of tris that are really very mixed up.
It wasn't until I contacted the Finnish breeders that I began to get some concrete idea of what might be going on.

I suppose that even the ticked varieties that I don't care for could be tweaked to increase contrast. the himi/siamese gives weird swirly looking meeces, I have called them paisley meeces in the past. And c^e or c give the best clear contrasty type of markings. All the other modifiers that exist in the c locus leaves a world of possibilities that as to yet has not been fully explored.
Mottling and splashing are definitely in there, for sure...how it will all shake out as far as the definitions and nomenclature I really don't care.. It'll make it easier to talk about these to each other. I have worked on my own for years at a time without being in contact with other breeders...I am really a lone wolf and would gladly go live in a cave if I could find one with electricity and runing water....getting punchy; it's been a long hectic week.
 

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I'm kind of a lone wolf too, I know how that is... I don't mind, and quite like asking for advice from other breeders, but my mice are my own, which is why i'm working so darn hard at creating my own lines.

Even if I am having a nightmare with the satins, and the 1st gene lilacs are refusing to breed... *rant, rant*

Sorry LOL

Willow xx
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ah, yes. I have a cinnamon in the tri line as well; one of the really kewl thing about the tri stuff is all the weird in between colors that show up. I was going to take some pix of a couple of odd meeces, then my SD card ran out of room after 9 shots. I have a really odd color that must be some sort of blue or lilac with ticking, lighter at the tips and really dark blue at the base.

I had never stopped to consider what the a^e gene would do in the presence of the tri factor. It had crossed my mind, but more like a passing storm cloud that rains downwind but leaves your neighborhood high and dry.

I lost one of my favorite cuddlebuddies last night; a common looking standard markedblack boy (he was a tri carrier) with nice size and a very mellow temperament who loved his wheel so much he built a nest in it almost every day, then went back to running as soon as I cleared it for him. He always took treats from The Hand, and gave earsies and nosies, and talked to me back quietly when I talked to him. His decline was quite rapid. He was 2 1/2 years old, bless his pointed little face, and he will be missed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Lacey threw two very large babies that were found dead in the general region of the nest. We'll see if she conceives again. In the meanwhile I'm going to try a couple of other pairings to try out my ideas. Lacey has an odd body shape, much like her forebearer, Bonus, my original tri carrier. I'll wait a bit, then move her into her own tank.

I've decided to breed Adamant, who I believe carries only c^e to several non-tri does who carry a c dilution other than c^h and c^ch. The types and placement of markings have to determined by the combination of the tri factor and the known dilution factors. I think I can see how these interact, and now I'm going to test my theory. I also need to figure out how the a^e interacts with the c locus and the tri factor.

I think I'm one the track to be able to describe the combination of processes, in a table form that will look something like a Basic Program. (No one uses Basic much anymore in computer programming except for the embedded BIOS.) All those ifthen's and for's and branchings. Less cumbersome than 0's and 1's and much less so than hex code.)
 
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