why so big?

I know just what you mean. It's weird to see mousies the size of rats. I don't know why breeders go for extremes in any animals, let alone mousies. Everyone wants something different and special, and show meeces are certainly different. They have been bred away from their origins for one hundred to two hundred years now, not quite long enough for them to be considered a separate species, but long enough that they are distinctly different from other meeces.

I've always wondered about the physiology of these big mousies; whether they have increased size reflected in their organs to match the increase in their size, and also wonder about health problems as a result of that.

Why not if we can?

Just think of the difference between a Przewalski's horse and a thoroughbred or shire horse, and imagine if all our horses still looked Przewalski's horses. It's all about striving for something better suited to its job or more attractive to our eyes. The large pale self mice are certainly most attractive to my eyes!

Sarah xxx

pomeranians to be the size of jack russels. Any insight is appreciated.

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those are different breeds of dogs and both are descendant of wolves....show mice are basically like a breed of dog. Wolves are "meant" to be fairly large...why have bred dogs to be only a couple lbs?...or close to 200?.... b/c they could/can and not everyone likes the same thing.

If it is purely a personal preference and essentially a different breed, why don't shows have a category for regular size mice that maintain the integrity of the natural sized mouse?

I've often wondered if there was a possibility of pet type shows with an ACTUAL pet type standard to adhere to.

I think it would be great. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out a weight category. Many in the US start breeding using pet store feeders. An average of the babies produced when adhereing to good feeding standards and little size should provide the ideal size for a pet type mouse that hasn't artifically been bred for size. I just weighed my two petshop females and they are 28g and 24g. I'm eager to see what size their babies are with proper nutrition growing up. It will also give a baseline for malnurished mice vs. healthy pet mice.

I've been saying that for ten years. Either have a separate class or standard for smaller meeces, or have a purely American mousie standard that prohibits really humongous meeces over a certain size. The only other way I can see would be to have the same standards, but recognize proportion over size. Many of my meeces are largely the same proportion as English show meeces, with a few differences that reflect personal taste, like the head shape. I like a cat-like whisker bed and a curvaceous cheek that narrows down before the whisker bed.

Even so, my mousies really don't look much like most pet store mousies, though I occasionally find one of those that I like.

jadeguppy said:

If it is purely a personal preference and essentially a different breed, why don't shows have a category for regular size mice that maintain the integrity of the natural sized mouse?

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it's not just personal prefence,some varieties are genetically predisposed to be larger.If you don't like the big ones then there are many varieties that are not very far removed from your average household pet.I don't have any of the large varieties and do fine with them at shows.There aren't any terrible health problems with the big mice ,the only difficulty that does occur is reduced labido and/or reduced fertility which if it isn't addressed leads to the demise of a particular line anyway.

If people are wanting 'pet' shows... then there shouldnt BE a standard.

Pets should be judged on on peronality, tractability and its ability to be a lovely cute pet. How big its ears are or arent does not matter.

While, yes, that's most common in the pet category, a pet standard was deliberately being discussed. Not for "pet" mice to be judged on how good of a pet they are, but for pet-type mice to be judged according to standards reasonable to their size.

Not all show variaties are monster sized mice, if you don't want to show large selfs, why not go for the smaller marked mice?

The ECMA has a pet class, and it is judged on beauty of markings, health, personality, and general appeal.

I thought that I've read on here that the largeness comes from the idea that if two mice were identical in every other way, the win would go to the larger. Is that the idea behind it?

I love decently big mice, so I'm not complaining at all. I just want to make sure I have my reasoning right.

thekylie said:

I thought that I've read on here that the largeness comes from the idea that if two mice were identical in every other way, the win would go to the larger. Is that the idea behind it?

I love decently big mice, so I'm not complaining at all. I just want to make sure I have my reasoning right.

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I'm curious about this as well.

CherryTree said:

thekylie said:

I thought that I've read on here that the largeness comes from the idea that if two mice were identical in every other way, the win would go to the larger. Is that the idea behind it?

I love decently big mice, so I'm not complaining at all. I just want to make sure I have my reasoning right.

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I'm curious about this as well.

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No, you're wrong on that. It isn't about size - it's about fitting the standard.

50 points on most varieties is allocated to colour, and on marked mice, more goes on the correct markings - this is why a tiny variety like Dutch can win a show, or other marked varieties. If it was only about size, shows here would only ever be won by the large pale selfs - creams, PEWs, champagnes and silvers. If two mice (of the same variety) were equal, it would not necessarily go to the larger mouse, as the standard asks for a long, lean, athletic looking mouse, and the very biggest mice tend to be too chunky to fit this standard. You are also maybe confusing 'size' with 'type' - type is more about overall desired proportions, whereas size is just big.

I'm not confusing it in my head, just in how it came out in text. What you explained is what I was thinking. I obviously wasn't talking about marked mice! I was picturing big PEWs. And I did say identical in every other way, meaning they both are perfect specimens with amazing type, including the racy body of course, and everything else great about them. I know the difference it type and size! I don't like just big fat mice! lol And I also didn't mean a BIS overall win, I was referring to one PEW vs. another PEW.

Here, I found the thread I was referencing:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3222&hilit=larger

My apologies, I don't always explain myself as well as I could.

neither poster are U.K based.For us it's not size,it's about fitting the standard to the best it possibly can.A baby fox won best in show at the weekend,beating Paul H's whoppers(cream) along with all other exhibits.Colour,type,fitness are all important,size not really.Even in Jacks post though it says they are not just bred for size.

I'm not saying it's all about size either. I'm not saying it's even kind of about size. I'm saying size is the last thing considered, because everything else on the mouse would have to be to standard before size is even considered.

Jack's statement, and what I said, came from the Body part of the standard that the ECMA follows, not something I read on this board, so I'm sorry for confusion. The ECMA isn't the NMC by a long shot, and is no where near perfect, but it's the only active club available to myself and many others in the eastern US.

"Body
The body should be long and racy and give the appearance of fluidity and strength. The mouse should not be too thin nor overweight but should be muscular and pleasing to the eye. The body will have a well-arched loin and will be proportionate. When two mice are equal in all qualities, preference would be given to the larger mouse."

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http://www.eastcoastmice.org/generaltype.htm

And the OP is US based as well, so a U.S. perspective isn't that off-base.

If you're intent on showing, you have to breed to the standard of the club you are showing in, or you won't be competitive. However, the mice are supposed to be compared to the standard, not each other so size really shouldn't play a roll.

thekylie said:

And the OP is US based as well, so a U.S. perspective isn't that off-base.

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I wasn't suggesting it was.I was bringing my perspective to a conclusion for that very reason,there are differences between our countries and there isn't a great deal of point expanding more when you have your own club and goals.I hadn't paid any attention to location until Jacks post was quoted,no need for me to offer opinion on U.S.A goals when there are active U.S.A members here.