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Why can't I choose!

2725 Views 15 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  Jack Garcia
I have been researching varieties for ages now, long before I found this forum, I just think I have decided on a variety to start off with when I think I like another just as much. It is driving me insane. I really want to get started with some mice but I keep stopping myself as I can choose!

I love Creams, Siamese, Chocolate tans, Chocolate rumpwhites. Chocolate anything is also stunning to me.

I think I just love those coffee mocha creamey colours. I also like typey which of the above might be more likely to be typey than the other? I know creams are often large and typey what about the others.


Anyone else have this trouble?
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A lot of people have that problem, and that's why they breed 10 or 12 varieties and get nowhere with any of them. So good on you for choosing, even if it's taking a while!

Rumpwhites are a marked variety and as such usually aren't as typey as the larger, pale selfs, although some that I've seen (of Cait's in particular) are not bad at all. They, like any marked variety, require a lot of room and large numbers of mice be kept, though.

If by cream you mean chinchillated red, they also have problems with type since reds are by default less typey due to their problems breeding.

Chocolate tans and siamese both have potential for good type. I've seen some really nice chocolate tans on the show bench but it's always a challenge (at least in the US) to keep type up while aiming for that deep red belly color that's required.
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Jack, cream in the UK is most commonly what Finnmouse calls BE Bone, made with one copy of the albino gene and one copy of the extreme dilution ('ce'). These mice tend to have superb type like the PEW :)

Mouseling, I found it incredibly difficult to choose as well. I spent months pouring through books and websites looking at pictures and learning all the genetics and I thought BE Creams were the variety for me. Then I got some doves in a litter and I was hooked, dove is the most beautiful of all mouse colours (not that I'm biased or anything :D ). I never gave dove a second thought before when I'd only seen pictures, they were just boring grey mice. Black is another one I didn't think I'd like from pictures, but when I actually saw a black, it was very, very beautiful. The best thing to do is go to shows and see lots of different mice and talk to their breeders.

Sarah xxx
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Oh, that is good to know. I recommend cream, then! :D

Incidentally, "cream" seems like one of those varieties that is different (genetically) in every country! lol
still going round in circles....I have ruled the rumpwhites out due to space at the moment. Still thinking about the others! Plus a few more!
Well, honestly, I'm sucker for PEW. A few years ago I would have told you they were too plain and common, but a good one can beat any other color on the show bench!

Maybe you could start out with PEWs and then if you want cream (ce/c) you could do that since they're related to one another?
Running on from Jacks comment... if you do decide to work with more than one variety, its always best that they compliment each other (ie: they can be used as outcrosses for each other)

Willow xx
What other kind of varieties would be related to each other, to allow for outcrossing?
Cinnamon, agouti, and red go together, as do bone, PEW, and ivory. Sable, black tan, and red can be bred together (but at the expense of the red) and so can dove and silver (sometimes).

Most c-dilutes (siamese, himalayan, chinchilla, etc) should never be bred to any mice who are not the same kind as them. Breeding in C-dilutes to a black or blue or (for example) will quickly ruin most other colors.
no the tan would ruin the selfs, nothing really compliments black selfs, although maybe agoutis?? but i think generally breeders keep black self lines pure.
You are right, Ian. Black selfs must be bred ONLY to other black selfs, or else you will compromise the black selfs at the expense of whatever else you're breeding. I have a black self who has a light nose most likely because he's the product of siamese X black. Blacks are one of the few varieties with no acceptable outcross.
What if you just wanted to breed tans? The tan would ruin the selfs, but would the selfs improve the tan?
Not necessarily, no. This is because black tans aren't "black mice with a tan belly" like you might think. In other words, black tans are not a/a with some sort of "tan factor" built in. The tan is a part of the top color, at/*.

To phrase that another way, a black tan is not just a black mouse with a tan belly. The "black tannness" is separate from the "blackness," if that makes sense. The A-locus hierarchy goes like this: Ay, Avy, Aw, A, at, am, a, ae. Tan (at) and black (a) are in separate places and produce separate phenotypes.

The best outcross for black tan is probably blue tan or chocolate tan (I'd choose blue tan, personally). You still have to be careful, though, because blues and chocolates often have modifiers lurking around, modifiers that will compromise the top color of the black tan.

I think a too-dark sable would also work as an outcross for black tan, but only very carefully and rarely. It's best to breed black tans to only black tans if you can help it at all.
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Wow... so many things to learn... just when I thought I had it figured out! :oops:
It's all very confusing and if you have any sort of social life at all you can never learn everything there is to know. We're all constantly learning. :p
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