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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Pick up from Leicester, Broxbourne or anywhere easily accessable by train from either location.

After going to Enfield, I decided that I'd really like to get into showing some, and breeding seriously instead of haphazardly, and see what happens. At the moment I don't have the space to start up a long haul breeding project, unfortunately (but possibly changing soon :D), but I would like to get some experience at showing and stuff. I will be putting in for my NMC membership shortly.

So, if anyone has a trio of show quality mice they'd be willing to part with, and in the area, I'd be grateful. I have no special preference for colour or anything at the moment, I'd be willing to buy the best that's offered, if anything. Willing to pay asking price for some stunners :3.
 

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I doubt you'll get offers of any quality stock by saying you'll take anything going... Breeders work hard to breed their chosen varieties and want to pass them on to people who will do their best to breed for show and carry on with them, not give them up quickly. This is likely to happen if you don't pick something you really like.

You need to work out which varieties you are interested in and find out the ins and outs of that variety before you organise stock. In your case since you mentioned limited space you'll need to work out how many mice you have space for. Since you already have quite a few pet mice this may prove a problem with show breeding. You would need room for a minimum of about 40-50 mice if you go for a consistent variety (e.g. a self like PEW or perhaps black tan) whereas marked are not recommended for a novice and would need room for at least 100 mice, perhaps more.

Once you join the NMC you will receive a yearbook with a listing of breeders who you can contact for advice and then later on, stock. It would be best to go to a show first and look at the varieties and talk to the breeders of those that really grab you (they may still not be suitable for a novice).

ETA: You will also need to think about culling. You had previously told me you would be doing this when you had mice from me and then didn't do so, leaving a mother with 14 babies. You will not be able to do this if you intend to show. Even those breeders who 'don't cull' wouldn't leave a mother with that many, and they do cull later anyway at around 6 weeks upwards, just not as babies. There is no way you can breed for show, raise all babies and a) win anything and b) find homes for the mice you don't need. I think it's better to say this now than after you buy any mice to breed from.
 

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NaomiR, if she wants to start breeding for show she should get her stock from someone who is currently showing that variety successfully and has a lot of experience with it so that they can offer advice. I know your mice came from Loganberry but these were your first litters and you're still learning how to select them yourself, so I don't think you can really supply 'show quality' stock to others yet. I know that you got nice animals from Heather but you have not got your own line established yet and have never shown any mice. This is not a criticism, just my opinion about foundation stock.
 

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no one can EVER supply "show quality" stock - you can not ever guarantee anything will ever be showable because you have the human factor which involves a judge selecting what they deem to be "show quality" on the day.

you will find I know a lot more about selection that you think ;)

I (personally) think you should be contacting Kage via pm's to express your (many) concerns as it's obviously between you two and doesn't really need to involve the rest of the forum?
 

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I have no problem with her getting show stock, I was offering advice. It's up to her whether to take it. If you have a problem with me (which is what it really seems like) then feel free to PM me. When I say show quality stock, I mean stock that is either showable or is suitable to produce show quality babies in the future. You can't tell me honestly that as a novice yourself that you can pick out that quality yet - it takes years to learn. I can't imagine that you yourself would advocate getting starting stock from someone with no show experience? Therefore don't be offended when it is brought up in relation to yourself. This is not an attempt to start an argument, as I clearly stated in my original post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Okay, well, I certainly never wanted to offend anyone. But I do think that your first post, while it does raise some good points, is a little unfair to be posting here, especially as some of it is a little wrong, and some issues have already been addressed :3. So please, don't think I'm being rude, but in answer;

MouseBreeder said:
I doubt you'll get offers of any quality stock by saying you'll take anything going... Breeders work hard to breed their chosen varieties and want to pass them on to people who will do their best to breed for show and carry on with them, not give them up quickly. This is likely to happen if you don't pick something you really like.
You do also have to take into account what varieties you can get hold of. Having done my research, I don't think there are any varieties that I particularly dislike, so there's nothing to say that I would give them up quickly. I have done my best to see as many different kinds first hand. Also, picking a variety from someone in my area rather than my favourite from someone far away means that I would hopefully be able to get more advice first hand. This was my thinking, and it may not necessarily be the right thinking, but that's why I'd be prepared to take any variety.

You need to work out which varieties you are interested in and find out the ins and outs of that variety before you organise stock. In your case since you mentioned limited space you'll need to work out how many mice you have space for. Since you already have quite a few pet mice this may prove a problem with show breeding. You would need room for a minimum of about 40-50 mice if you go for a consistent variety (e.g. a self like PEW or perhaps black tan) whereas marked are not recommended for a novice and would need room for at least 100 mice, perhaps more.
I have actually rehomed/sold most of my two litters, and I have lost a few of those pet mice recently too. Most people I've spoken to said that they started on a smaller scale, and built up from there.

Once you join the NMC you will receive a yearbook with a listing of breeders who you can contact for advice and then later on, stock. It would be best to go to a show first and look at the varieties and talk to the breeders of those that really grab you (they may still not be suitable for a novice).
I will be joining this week sometime, hopefully. And I did go to Enfeild for exactly that reason. This was why I knew I would be happy with whatever was available in the area, because I've spoken to several people, watched the judging through a good portion of the show, and combined it with my research online.

ETA: You will also need to think about culling. You had previously told me you would be doing this when you had mice from me and then didn't do so, leaving a mother with 14 babies. You will not be able to do this if you intend to show. Even those breeders who 'don't cull' wouldn't leave a mother with that many, and they do cull later anyway at around 6 weeks upwards, just not as babies. There is no way you can breed for show, raise all babies and a) win anything and b) find homes for the mice you don't need. I think it's better to say this now than after you buy any mice to breed from.
It was 12 babies, and they were specifically a pet litter, and partially hand reared... And I wasn't under the impression it was a condition of their sale, or I would have done it. I have already spoken to a few people about culling, anyway. I know that I cannot continue to breed litters without at least culling the bucks, and I know that for show the recommended is four a per litter. Its true that I chose not to do it before now, but I don't think that it would be fair to assume that I wouldn't do it in the future, having realised how impractical it is. Its one thing to read online many people telling you something, and another to actually experience and realise how true it is. I have another litter due in three weeks, and if anyone was in doubt as to whether I would cull to keep their lines in good shape they would be welcome to wait until then and see :3.

Anyway. I really didn't mean to offend anyone, and I hope that things are a little clearer now. Yes, I am a complete novice and I do appreciate any advice that comes this way. I just thought that it would be better to start with good, show quality stock so that I could participate in some of the other side of the hobby... instead of just muddling with some pet litters. I know that this might mean that a lot of people might question how serious I was about the whole thing, so if there's anyway for me to lay those doubts to rest, please let me know. And yes, I would understand if no one was prepared to sell to me their hard won quality mice, but it was certainly worth asking just in case.
 

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Hi Kage - i think i spoke to you at Enfield - i was stewarding? The one with short blond hair :p I don't believe anyone was having a go at you, just pointing out some useful things that you need to bear in mind before going into show breeding. And it is a good idea to look out for a specific variety, as you might decide you prefer marked over selfs, for instance, but end up with selfs and get sick of them, and it does take an awful lot of effort to get anywhere breeding to show - there's a lot to learn - so you will want to make the effort with something you can see every day for two years and not get bored of! And this does take a scale of years to get going, not months :D So don't take offence to the stuff above as it is only meant to make you think, not any other reason - and the forum is the right place to air these things, as it can give other people things to think about.

I also agree with what's been said above re Naomi - Naomi, you had your first stock from me what - 5 weeks ago? - and now you're offering them to other people who are looking at going into breeding for show. As i said to Naomi before, Kage, if you want to breed for show, buy stock from someone that shows and has had success at it. It will give you the best chance of gettig somewhere, and will give you someone experienced to ask advice from - well worth it.

Naomi, i know you think you have a good eye for selection, but you're experience from what i gather is in cavies, not mice, which are very different animals. I suggest you get hold of some maxis and start showing, and get out there and talk to more breeders at show and look at more mice. This takes more than five weeks to get the hang of, trust me.
 

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I'm not being funny (well I'm not trying to be) but with this sort of responce to "new comers" is it any wonder that the fancy is dying a death???

I really think more needs to be done to encourage newbies as the fancy desperatley needs a big injection of "new blood" otherwise you will all just end up competing against yourselves which (lets face it) must get a little boring?

And trust me if I could get HOLD of some Maxeys I would have shown already ;) I'm on the waiting list (aparantly) but don't know how long it will take so I'm looking into making my own.

Weather my experience is with cavies, mice, horses or cats, type is type and I work closely with someone who has a very experienced eye for type in all animal breeds. You're right my selection process is rubbish because I just like the cutest which isn't always a very practical direction lol so I am heavily reliant on other people's opinions but help is on hand - not to worry ;)

I just don't think anyone was asking for anyone opinion/s in the first place, this is a WANTED thread not a "should I or shouldn't I?" :roll:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Oh, I know no one was having a go. I hope my response didn't make it seem that way or anything. I just wanted to explain exactly my position in answer to the original post by Cait, not argue right/wrong. Any advice after that I have no answer to, I just wanted to explain. And yes, I did realise afterwards that it was exactly the right place to post it - no doubt everyone else would be thinking something similar too.

Yes, we did speak at Enfield (I keep spelling that wrong. Atrocious as I've lived right by there forever -_-). I was the fat one on wheels XD. Kept asking a bunch of questions. I really don't have much of a preference between varieties, having seen them in the flesh so to speak. I couldn't tell you, having gone away and thought about it, which I liked best. Or even two or three, and then worked out which was more practical. I will just have to go to more shows, talk to more people and see what jumps out at me, I think.
 

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Hiya!! :D You were not the fat one on wheels, you nutter! You were the interested, fresh faced one that spent a lot of time observing the mice and listening to the judging - all good stuff.

if you're interested in champagnes, silvers and/or pink eyed whites (my silvers and chams both produce PEWs), let me know. My chams also produce satin chams, but my numbers of those are low right now. I'm based near Sutton, south London.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
And talking over the best in show judging :eek:. Lol.

I do like silvers and chams, but I think its hard to get cham colours right, isn't it? Oh, buggerit, I'm showing how little I really know already. I'll wait until the next time I can talk to you in person, I think :/. Will you be at Enfield next month? I'm not in a rush, and I think it would be sensible in light of everyone's suggestions to have a chat first XD. That is if you can put up with talking to me some more :p.
 

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I'm finding the silver and champagne colour "tricky" but not hard and each judge will give you a different definition of the colour too which doesn't help. Heather probably knows which judge to show which colour under - I'm a bit more hit and miss and still selecting the colours I like which (as I've said before) probably isn't very practical but I have to like my mice ;)

Type works with all breeds but that really is something that can be learnt.

The only real thing I feel I'm lacking is experience, I haven't yet run on enough youngsters to know if the ones I singled out at an early stage were the "right" ones.
 

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Kage I was not trying to offend you, and I would say the same things to anyone who was going into breeding (ask some of the members here!). It is just that people often sugar coat things when it's actually really hard to get into show breeding, so I think it was better to say the things about culling etc now rather than later. I never said anyone's methods were right or wrong and everyone has a method that works best for them. I, like everyone else (and anyone who says otherwise is lying) made mistakes when I started and I do try and tell others about them so they don't do the same. However in some cases of course the only way is to go through it yourself, however unpleasant it may be. About the varieties, until you get going it might be a good idea to have just one variety, then branch out into another when you are confident. Something like PEWs, which I think you like anyway, or black tans, might be a good place to start... As for getting hold of stock, if someone can bring it to a show that a member here is attending I don't think anyone would mind bringing it back for you if that gave you more options to have a go with a variety you really wanted. As Heather says, you really do need to be able to stare at this variety every day for a couple of years without getting bored!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I know, and I didn't take offence. I know its serious business, I just wanted to show that I did mean to take it seriously. Like I said, it was all fair points knowing all of the things that you did know, just that some of them I had already considered. But you didn't know that.

I was definitely planning on working on one variety. I do have some pet breeding on the side, but its most for experimenting with what colours I can get and I certainly wouldn't be crossing the two lines. I suspect that once I do establish some show stock, there won't be any room for further pet breeding and I'll just keep those guys as... pets, heh :3. I haven't held on to many of my babies anyway, so the pet stock is aging past breeding soon.

So I'll rule out marked for now. I do like the marked ones, but I don't have space to do it properly. PEWs wouldn't be my first choice, I have to admit. I really want to try chins/foxes, but I'll save that for later on when I've got past the first stages. Maybe self black, or if I could get any, self blue... I'll wait, and talk to people in person at the next show, I think. Two people have already gone out of their way to recommend Loganberry. And I know Ian is working on self blacks/blues so I could ask him about those, if he's there next time. BECs are also a favourite of mine, maybe I could talk to you, Cait, about those sometime? Via PM or something...

Like I said, no rush. Now that all of this has been discussed, I feel very silly for starting the topic at all XD.
 
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