[Jack Garcia]

I have here an argente doe who comes from dominant red English lines imported a few years ago. She is a known cannibalizer, having eaten her first litter at another breeder's house.

Since the litter she cannibalized was her first, I decided I would try again at least once because overall she's an ok mouse and offers a little bit of genetic diversity in that all of my mice are super inbred.

I didn't know if she was pregnant or not this time as she has been with a male for at least two months constantly with no babies. Today I lifted up the house in her tank and found 2 small, deep red babies. They were moving, but had absolutely 0 milk in their bellies. I immediately took them and put them under another female who only has 2 babies, even though they are sufficiently older. I'm not going to disturb them the rest of the day (there's no point) but tomorrow we will see if they have milk bellies or if they're even there still.

This doe also has a tumor or some sort of lump on her vagina. Not near it, but directly ON it. It's almost as if her labia sticks out and protrudes beyond the rest of her reproductive organs. The lump is firm but small. I had not noticed this until yesterday, when I was checking her to see if she was indeed pregnant.

If she is not too disturbed, I will take pictures of her later today or tomorrow.

Edit: here are some pictures of the vaginal ailment.

Warning: they might be considered graphic depending on what you're used to.

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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18 Show Content

She is doing poorly and will be euthanized soon. It's a shame.

 

[ian]

hhmmm... I've not seen this before, was the lump there before she gave birth?

I hope your babies survive then, a bit of new blood can do wonders.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Honestly, I don't know if it was there before she gave birth. I don't remember it being there, though.

I had a mouse from another breeder who once had a tumor inbetween her vagina and her nipple, but this one is actually ON her vagina, if it's a tumor.

I do know that pregnancy can sometimes cause very small tumors to grow faster, though.

 

[moustress]

It could be a rupture of the vaginal wall (not sure if that's called a hernia or a hydrocele). I had a doe who had something like this, and she died as her vagina prolapsed (pushed outside the body cavity) and she and all the babies died after she delivered part of the litter. Rodents have the same structural weaknesses as other mammals, and the location where the genitive and eliminative pass through the lower abdominal wall is especially vulnerable. I have a buck right now with a hydrocele (testicular) and he has a fluid filled pouch on his rump. He does not appear to be in any distress so I'm letting it go for now.

I'd love to get my hands on a mousie that came from a good red line, myself. Sorry for your loss.

 

[WillowDragon]

Yeah, personally I would say that looks like a vaginal prolaspe.

I really hope the babies do well!! =oD

Willow xx

 

[Jack Garcia]

A vaginal prolapse, eh? The mouse has been put to sleep. I obviously don't know if she was in pain but she seemed to jerk back when I touched it, although I would expect any mouse to not like being touched "down there."

I couldn't resist temptation so I checked on the two babies. They're both full of milk now.

The babies that were already there are 9 days old. I've never fostered babies this far apart in age before. And there are actually 3 of them, not 2 like I originally said (that was a typo). So there are 3 soon-to-be 10 day old babies, and 2 little newborns who didn't have a good start. I worry a bit that the older babies will out compete the younger ones...

I'm hoping it goes well. If either baby is a female, are vaginal prolapses inheritable? I'm thinking that must be why she ate her first litter--she "knew" she wouldn't be able to raise them...

 

[Cait]

This is a bit OT, but Jack I think your dominant yellow you mention was from SarahC's stock on here as she provided some when I did an export a while ago (I don't know of anyone else who has sent fawns to the US from the UK). Coincidence?

 

[Jack Garcia]

That's very possible! I don't know the exact details of when they were shipped over, but it wasn't that long ago. Looking at the notes I originally scribbled on the pedigree, this girl was related to OSR (Jennifer Hipsley) mice, who I know had some imported from England. The OSR mice were either the grandparents or the great grandparents...my writing is hard to decipher.

The reason I wanted this mouse even though she had displayed breeding issues is that 95% or so of my mice are ultimately descended from the stock of 3 or 4 US breeders, who all trace their stock back to another US breeder, and this line of mice represents a full outcross that isn't poorly typed (unlike the petstore mice in the US, which is my only other realistic outcross, and I won't do that).

Isn't it funny to think that across such a huge ocean, our mice could be so closely related?

Edit: Here is a picture of her from when she was healthy:

Look like your mice, SarahC?

 

[moustress]

It's not too likely to be inheritable, Jack. It probbly was caused by a baby getting wedged side ways, or two trying to exit at the same time. I'm glad to hear the two surviving babies are doing well.

 

[SarahC]

Look like your mice, SarahC?

Well yes it does although I would hesitate on using a fawn bred argente for breeding as I find the white feet to be a problem.I get rid of any that have white feet.I'm rubbish at genetic stuff though,I just learn from my experiences.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Yeah, I would too. That's why if these two babies make it, I'm proceeding very cautiously at least at first. I'm dealing with white feet and toes with my agoutis...

 

[Jack Garcia]

UPDATE:

Both babies are doing well. Here they are as they appear today:

There's one buck and one doe, so I will breed them together to see if the problem with birthing/cannibalizing was perhaps genetic. If there's no problem from there I will proceed to very selectively cross the their descendants into my other mice.

 

[moustress]

Good news; thanks for the update.