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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've finally taken the leap to breed my girl.
She is the first example of the tri phenotype recorded in Australia to my knowledge.

If it is a true tri, I'm glad we found it so early in the development of our fancy as it will be a variety that is not far behind our "show type" mice which are equivalent to your "pet type" mice but slightly more robust than a typical pet store mouse.
See my article http://sites.google.com/site/icedmicerodentry/for-sale/why-buy-iced-mice-and-rats, this is how far we've come in the last decade.
The doe pictured in my article is grandmother to this litter.

Yes I'm confient she is a tri it just doesn't show well on the photos because of the flash.

This is the pairing I chose, the male is very young, he best >siamese< colouring is yet to be seen:


Pregnant Shirley Temple:


Shirley babies:

They are all black eyed so I assume mum is coffee tri. It's most likely a poor example of coffee, we don't have to many of those either.

photo better illustrating Shirley's tri colour:
 

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I'm very interested to see how the babies develop.

Australia is sort of an anomaly in terms of the mouse fancy due to the strict laws on import and export. I'd love to visit one of your shows to experience the way things are done out there!

If she's the same sort of dominant splashed (Sp/*) mouse we have in the US and Europe, half the babies should be splashed or tri(color). Keep us updated with pictures! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Are you serious!!!

I understood the tri gene to be recessive so all the babies would be carriers.

I'm so exited. I hope she is a tri then!
I'll certainly be specialising in the variety if that's the case.

If not I'll keep playing around with this lot to see if I am able to reproduce the trait in the F2 or F3 generations.
 

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Yep, I'm serious. Tricolors like we in the US have are genetically c-dilute recessives which are not PEW (so, that means himalayan, siamese, beige, stone, chinchilla, burmese, and so forth) who are also splashed (Spl/*) and which then also have some sort of white spotting. To get tricolor mice, you're combining both dominant and recessive traits on the same mouse.

When all three "ingredients" occur on the same mouse, it results in animals with three distinct colors.

When Splashed and the C-dilutes occur but not white spotting, the mice are splashed.

However, yours may be a new mutation so even if there are no F1 tricolors, it can't hurt to back-cross to be sure.
 

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Merle doesn't produce differently-colored animals in mice. It produces mice with different shades of the same color. So for example, patches of light blue on dark blue, or black on gray and so forth.
 

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Yeah. I dunno, I figured maybe the colours could be a bit off in the photo. :p
If she is a tri, and you really are one of the few, if not the only person with a tri mouse in Aussie, then your mice will be really in-demand! :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That's so awesome!

When I first brought her home I knew she was unique.

My first reaction was merle, which is why she was called Shirley. Reading more on the subject she doesn't resemble merles from international lines.
Our manx are recessive so it isn't unreasonable to assume our tri phenotype mice are different as well.

Shirley is currently 7 months old, this is her first litter. I'm not sure it's possible to backcross, she might be a bit old.
I'll try brother to sister matings, it should give me a similar result.
 

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Excuse me, but I think you misspoke, Jack. Merle doesn't make different shades of the same color. It has patches of any standardized color mixed with patches of 'roan' with hairs of full strength mixed with white hairs. Marked roan has both of these kind of patches along with patches of white.

Roan and merle are still mysterious and unpredictable to breeders as to how it is produced.
 

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Very little in Mendelian inheritance is "mysterious and unpredictable" unless you believe bananas grow in grocery stores, as mentioned before.

It is technically true that merle is a roan mouse with patches of solid color, but when you evenly mix white (such as you see on a roan) with black, you get gray. With merle mice, think of paint. When you evenly mix white with dark blue, you get light blue, and so forth.

To the original poster: seven months is a bit old for a first litter, but in the case of an otherwise healthy mouse who may be a spontaneous mutation you're wishing to reproduce, I wouldn't hesitate to breed her again. I have a friend who breed a mouse after a year old. She slowly culled down the litter until there were only 2 or 3 babies, and all was well.
 

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moustress said:
The white hairs give the undiluted color the appearance but not the reality of being lighter.
When you're dealing with color theory, appearance is reality. Put a green apple on a green wall, then on a red wall and tell me which looks brighter. ;)

The colors around (or inside) other colors greatly affect the way the human eye perceives the whole.
 

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When you're dealing with color theory, appearance is reality.
So if I came on here and started calling all of my mice "brown" and "grey" and "orange", no one would care or dare to correct me, right?

I tend to agree with moustress on this point. Just because there is a difference, and anyone else would be corrected if they used the wrong terminology. A merle dog does not have patches of roan, it actually is grey and black. A merle mouse is more akin to a varnish roan horse. And having a merle dog to compare to a merle mouse on a daily basis, I would describe a black "merle" mouse as a black roan with solid black patches.

And in reference to this case, where you would be comparing this black and "beige" mouse, notating the white hairs interspersed in the lighter "shade" would be very helpful in the identification process.
 

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No, not really. You're missing a key difference. In beige, blue, or red or other self mice, all of the hairs are (in proper specimens) the same color. In merle mice, the hairs are different colors and interspersed in such a way to create the appearance of one color on the background of another color. Make sense? The way that the black and white combine to "make" gray on a merle mouse is unique to merle (and roan). I do understand what you're saying, and agree with part of it, except that merle (and roan) is a bit different from most other (self) colors in mice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
LOL...love the thoughful debates that go on here. We don't have roan or merle in Australia so it's fascinating to read people's opinions. We have some members that frequent Finnmouse, AFRMA and fun mouse but you get so much more out of the fanciers that work with and understand these varieties.

UPDATE: HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE!!!
They are 3 days old and all have dark skin much like a black or agouti AND they appear SELF!!!
The father I'm confident would at least carry recessive white spotting, his mother has a small white headspot and had 3 marked pups.

This is puzzling....but exciting!

I'm hesitant to say what it is till their fur starts growing in but I have some hypothesis of what it might be if they are indeed black self.
I'll come up with a new plan once I have a better idea of their true colour.
 

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Sometimes, even though chance tells us what "should" happen in terms of what percentage of babies should be what color/marking, Mother Nature decides otherwise.

For example, even though statistically every litter should be 50% male and 50% female, we've all had experiences where this isn't the case. But on a larger scale, over years and decades and hundreds and thousands of litters, it proves to be accurate.

If dad is S/s and mom is s/s, it's possible, just not very likely, that all of the babies are S/s.

I'm very much looking forward to pictures, regardless as to how they turn out! :)
 
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