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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I stumbled upon this little one is a produce store today, her name is "Shirley Temple" after the cocktail.



I don't believe we "officially" have tricolours in Australia. Shirley I think is our first recorded occourance.
We don't have a lot of things, no extreeme blacks, no abyssinian, no merle.
Another breeder recently stumbled upon what appears to be a gremlin! not long ago we didn't have those either.

I also adopted what I believe is her brother a mismarked dutch in the hope I can produce another tricolour to share with other fanciers and pet homes.


Questions:
1) Am I right in my classification. Is she in fact a tricolour?
2) How do tricolour genetics work?
3) Can someone tell me about their experiences working with tricolour mice?

She's only a tiny 13g currently but I'm hoping she'll gain a bit of weight in the next couple months.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Willow, I think she's a tri too, but as we have never officially had one it's a bit up in the air at the moment until I start investigating it furthur.

Question:

With regards to fawn brindles, it is a thoery in Australia that tricolour fawns are the result of marked brindles with excessive brindling. True or false?

We are having a bit of a debate as to wheather my girl is actually a marked brindle as opposed to a splashed tricolour. If she is that has got the be the greyest fawn I have ever seen!!!

In Australia mice resembling tricolours have been bred although all look a bit suspiciously like overmarked brindles. All have had fawn as one of their three colours.
Mine on the other hand has a dove-like dilute colour. It's more on the grey-brown side and not as orangey as the photo suggests.

It would be very much appreciated if someone could clarify our dilemma and give some examples please.
 

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She is not a fawn as she has black eyes... and I'm pretty damn sure she is not a red. It depends what type of brindle you mean as to whether i can answer your question definately though.

How the splash gene works is it needs something on the c locus to show up, generally c(e) or c(h), extreme dilute or himilayan.
Your girlie looks to me like a black with splash and c(e) which accounts for the biege colour.

It is my understanding that the splash gene is dominant, breed her to her brother and see what happens :D

I'm excited for you, I think I would die if I found a mouse like that over here!!

Willow xx
 

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She is not splashed/tricolor (or "transgenic" as some people call it), and she is not American brindle (Avy/*).

I can't say for certain what she is though...

Other than "pretty," I mean. :)
 

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As usual, I disagree. This looks like a tri to me. However, it easily could be a brindled mouse. I can't see how anyone could tell from this pic what kind of brindled it could be. It may look like a tri or a brindled, and just be a sport, this is to say a random occurence that is not inheritable. In the US we call black eyed yellow/orange/red meeces fawn. If you want to do a test mating I'd go to an albino buck or a marked black. Transgenic meeces are not as rare as most would think as there have been thousands or different types chrned out by labsover the last 50 years, give or take a decade.
 

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Splashed (or tricolor or "transgenic") just doesn't appear that way. It's hard to explain exactly but I could show you in person what I meant.

I mean, she could be splashed, yes, but I don't think so. Basically, the demarcation on splashed is not the same and the distribution doesn't happen that way. She looks like a mouse a friend of mine had called a mosaic, where one group of cells was from a different lineage than the others was present and was thus not reproduceable. Depending on the area of the US, either explanation could be just as likely, so I can't say for Australia. :p

P.S. Mousetress, are you affiliated with any club or organization? I don't know of any near Minnesota but both the ECMA and the AFRMA accept non-regional members. I wonder because some of your opinions often seem to be...unique...not that that's a bad thing, I just wonder what affiliations you have or don't have...if it turns out you were right about all the guesses I've heard you make, you'd be an asset to any club! :)

Edit: After looking at the pictures some more, I will concede that I generally look at splashes and tricolors who are bred to standard, so if this mouse is in fact splashed/tricolor, she's a poor example but cute nonetheless! The only way to know for sure is to breed her to a known non-splash (splash can "hide" when the proper C-locus dilutions aren't present).
 

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To me she looks like a tri colour with dutch markings!!

But I will concede that i have never seen a tricolour in real life and therefore am probably wrong!!

BUT... would a dutch gene affect which areas the colours showed up?

Willow xx
 

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Also, I had another thought that I should add. "Tricolor" mice is a standard designation that is used in the ECMA. In the AFRMA they are called "broken multi." I have heard some people who aren't affiliated with any mouse club actually call them "calico." "Transgenic" is another yet name, but only applies to most tricolors and only some broken multis. So you can see how terminology gets confusing really quickly. :p
 

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Oh yeah! :p That is yet another variation! That mouse in the NMC standards is a marked sable. So there are literally half a dozen or more ways to get a mouse with three colors, and even more names for it, but only two are standardized. However, when people not affiliated with clubs use the standard names for things that aren't what they say, it gets even more confusing, lol. :p
 

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A mouse that carried dutch and tri is a very interesting thought. I think I have a couple of those!

*moustress to add to mental checklist of parings she'd like to try*

*yes, she does dream of a realio trulio tricoulor*

The first question is whether the colors shown are black and beige or black and yellow. If it's an actual tricolor, that's absolutely astounding and amazing (and several other early twentieth century pulp zines) and probably wouldn't breed true, much as the other types of genuine tricolours that have appeared. I only call my multi-tone meeces tris as they are not tricolours just meeces with several shades or hues that are based on a single color basis (either eumelanin or phaeomelanin *sp*).i.e. beige, brown, black or cream, yellow, orange, red.

Back to the the subject of marking types and tri (my tri) type meeces. The marking types determine to a great extent where the colors and the divisions of hues appear on the mousie. I think I have worked a way to sort of get a good distribution of a collection of hues on an individual mousie. I am using tri carriers that are marked black. I don't know yet why that works, and even with that, if it were true, the tri thing is stilll very unpredictable. Not the sort of thing a breeder of show meeces really wants to deal with. In addition, there appears to be a sequential process that changes the appearance from generation to generation in mousies that have bold tri markings. Within this sequencing one seems to get sterile individuals, BEW's, and an increased early mortality from unknown causes. I was very pleased when my pairing of the tri buck and b&w marked carrier yielded a large and healthy batch of a dozen babies. Maybe the genome gets played out and needs to go back and pick up some unmanipulated material with work with.

OK, back to the dutch thing; I think that when tris occur that have the colors in patterns that mimic any recognized pattern, dutch, banded, etc., they are broken up within that particular zone, as we see in this girlie. Certain combinations of banding broken into two bold patches across the back seem it indicate sterility, or reproductive difficulties in general. I have Nibbles (shown in other posts) with another tri doe to see if he can git 'er done, and this will be his fourth girlie. None of the first three got pregnant visibly. The two girlies I had with that pattern both died young, one after delivering a dead litter. That probably reveals something really important about the real reason this strain of transgenic meeces were created in the first place. I keep flailing about trying to learn enough about mousie genetics to help me really understand the stuff I read on line. as you can see, I am not at all shy about theorizing and trying to interpret stuff I think I understand. Nor am I shy of asking for help from any source.

I have yet to determine if there's any way to use brindling to achieve a real tricolour. My litters of yellow/tris are intesting, and I am going to make another couple of pairings in both brindling and yellows before I abandon those lines for good.

All I can say for sure about markings types is that without them, one tends to get meeces with all-over mottling, splashing, etc. with little in the way of the islands of pigment that are the most notable feature of of the tri mousies. Over at Funmouse, there is an attempt to define how the transgenic element works; I categorically disagree with 90% of that. There are still two many unanswered questions for standards to be set for tris. Opportunities like this, being asked about the tris, is good for me because it makes me order my thoughts on the matter. It's easy to look at a couple of litters and try to define what you see, but, like I said, I think there is something much more to the whole genotype than The Funmouse or I have yet to discover. The hermaphroditism (I wonder if she has seen that in her mousery) is a weird and wonderful clue that tells me that there is a substantial piece of the tri genome that indicates or mimics the presence of a whole third set of X in the critter.

For what it's worth, the dude who sent me the tris almost three years ago says I'm the only breeder he sent them to who has been able to produce a significant portion of meeces that looks like the tris that he produced in his mousery. I'm just stabbing around in the dark, learning a lot, relearning when I find I'm wrong, and enjoying the results, cuz, hey, they iz all mousies!! And moustress loves da mooziekins, little cutie pot pies that they are.

I do go on, don't I. I think it's because of all that late night time spent awake with thoughts of meeces turning round in my head.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hmmmm.....curious.

I took my siamese fox male to the vet today to have a lump diagnosed. I also brought my new little one to get a checkup, she's small but otherwise in pretty good health so that's promising.

It's given me a lot to think about though.

Aussie mice have been isolated from the rest of the world for a while now due to importing restrictions.
I'm wondering if this is a different mutation that also causes a tricolour phenotype?

So I don't know HOW she's a tricolour and probably won't know for a while anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
How's this, does it give you a better idea?





And the cuteness:



Yeah it's hard, I'm discussing the best way of going about breeding tricolours with local fanciers. It's a bit hard, she's comming to Feb show and it might give us a better idea of how to go about breeding her.
 

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Those are much clearer pictures!

I asked a friend who breeds tricolors for show and she said it looked like a tricolor. The thing is, import or export of mice is forbidden in Australia so it almost certainly must have originated spontaneously if that's what it is. It could also be another "lookalike" mutation. Either way, she's cute, especially in that last pic! :D
 
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