[icedmice]

Just enquiring about how I should go about breeding plans.

It has become apparent to me that even the best pedigreed mice in Australia seem to be a bit of a genetic rainbow.
It's not unusual that people use "Agouti siamese", "Blue Burmese" or cross colours over making it impossible to predict the outcome of any litter.
It appears as though some breeders seem to be only thinking of the next generation and not of their program as a whole.

It is very fustrating for me when I have no idea what my mice could be carrying.
Ultimately I'd like an entire litter of mice that is one shade and one shade only, no "oddballs" - a genetically pure line.
Only when I achieve this will I be able to focus on reducing common faults.

So my question is what's the best way of going about this?

 

[WillowDragon]

If you are wanting to improve on show quality, type etc... the best variety really would be PEW.

the PEW's in this country are always bigger and generally better typed than others, because you don't have to worry about colour, tan hairs etc.

Other than that, i would say major culling will be needed if you want to try for a pure coloured line. Set up a couple of lines, starting with foundation stock that are all the same colour, than in every generation cull any babies that are not that colour.
If you try and keep your lines very distantly related, then you can use them for a while as outcrosses before having to bring in new stock.

Of course, when trying to improve mice of any colour, using only the best you have in every generation will work, so lots of rehoming and/or culling will be needed.

Willow xx

 

[icedmice]

Cheers,
It's not only colour I'm concerned about I've got a manx line and spinal formation is very importaint to me.

Not many PEW fanciers here unfortunately. PEW also hides the mouses true colour, I'd really like to know if my PEW is black or agouti based.
I haven't noticed one colour having better form over another either, I've got some black tans with really nice form but lacking a bit when it comes to temperment. They don't bite but they won't jump up into your hands either, they just wiggle their tails a bit LOL.

I was considering doing one or two generations of inbreeding with mice that have the qualities I'm after.
Possibly doing this with a couple unrelated mice and crossing the two lines over down the track.

I'm hesitant to go down this path though, what are your experiences?

 

[WillowDragon]

I have done and am doing closely inbred litters (brother to sister) to create the colours i want for my lines, especially for my lilacs as hardly anyone in the fancy here has them.
So far I have had no problems, but its not something i would recommend doing in the long term.

Once i get the desired colours in my lines, i will swap around bucks so I can start breeding with not so closely realted mice.

W xx

 

[SarahY]

Inbreed, inbreed, inbreed! Then you'll know what your mice are hiding behind the scenes, good and bad. Outcrosses will bring in yet more hidden factors, so try to outcross as little as possible, only when necessary and not just for the sake of it.

Other than that, just keep at it, always breeding only the best in the colour that you want and if possible discard mice that are carrying colours you don't want. You'll get those unwanted genes out eventually. That is how I'm trying to get the chocolate gene out of my dove line, and I've just had my second generation born with no champagnes in the litters, huzzah!

ETA: If you are very serious about breeding mice with no hidden recessives and focusing on type and colour quality, I would suggest doing a line of black selfs, black tans, or agoutis. A 'purebred' black or agouti carrying absolutely nothing that would ruin another colour is a very valuable mouse indeed for many different reasons, not least of all as an outcross to other lines/varieties.

Sarah xxx

 

[icedmice]

I agree with you Sarah. I've started with blacks and agoutis funnily enough, not a great deal of public interest unfortunately.

I do wish to keep a black line going, slowly trying to nut out the agouti gene, although that's not too tough because it's dominant . Trouble is some of my agoutis run rings around my blacks, my best stud buck is agouti :roll: .

I finally have some of the colours I want comming through but I still need lots more work on them.

 

[Jack Garcia]

I agree with what everybody else has said. Way back when, I tried creating a line of blacks who carried nothing but it faltered and kept giving PEWs and blues no matter how many times I thought "this mating will ONLY give blacks." I might try again some day...

 

[icedmice]

Yes I expect that.

Sometimes I feel like the pedigrees kept are simply a record of ancestors and not actually working towards a goal. With the exception of one breeder who tries not to mix and match. They seem to do really well at shows.

I'll be battling with the c dilutes for a while all my blacks and black based mice are either diluted to carry dilution of some sort. I've also discovered some of them carry chocolate.