[Jack Garcia]

Hello.

I currently have three litters of red mice (Ay/A b/b). Their fur hasn't really come in yet.

I'm wondering if anybody has any pictures of red babies as they develop? These mice are all dark, but at this point I can't tell which is cinnamon and which is red.

In a few days I will be able to tell for sure but I thought I'd ask here as well in case any of y'all have pictures!

 

[Rhasputin]

Eeeeee babies! :>

 

[WillowDragon]

I wouldn't be of much help, none of the reds that have ever been born in my mousery have been good and dark.

But I will say... the darkest red mouse i ever bred, when she was a pinkie I thought she was going to be chocolate! I was surprised when she turned out quite a respectable red (Though no way near as dark as yours)

W xx

 

[Jack Garcia]

Thanks Willow. That's what I had figured...I have 11 babies in the oldest litter, and I was fearing that all 11 would be cinnamon instead of red (that's like my luck!).

I am thinking at least two are red, though. When they have all their fur in I will post pictures.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Here are some updated pictures of the red boys' babies. Two litters, two different mothers.

This litter is red X cinnamon. As you see, there is only one red baby but her color is relatively pure and clean. Even though I culled down to four, they are still somewhat thin for my liking.

This litter is red X black. As you see, they have umbrous stripes and must not be bred from. Their red color is weaker, duller, and more interrupted than the ones above.

Umbrous would not be a fault (or even noticeable) on a black mouse, but on a red or agouti, it is a kiss of death. Its complicated pattern of inheritance (incompletely dominant, with partial penetrance) makes it very hard to get rid of.

 

[moustress]

If I were looking for the best color in a litter, I wouldn't cull at all.

 

[Jack Garcia]

We do things differently.

 

[moustress]

Yes, I know. But with the reds, you imported your stock from Europe, and I'd think you'd be more concerned with producing a number of mousies of the desired color for your future breeding. Do you see my reasoning?

 

[Jack Garcia]

Nope. The ones culled were cinnamon. I still have three cinnamon females and one red female, plus the original cinnamon female and two red males, plus other litters which are not yet furred.

 

[WillowDragon]

I would definately save that red girl from the first litter and breed back to dad.

I have noticed with reds, that they sometimes tend to 'lighten' with age, unlike some other colours which darken, but, even if she is slightly brighter than dad, breeding her back to him will help towards fixing certain modifiers in. And as far as I have read and been told, the deep setter red you have there Jack, requires lots of modifiers to keep it that way, red can be spoiled in one generation and require many more to make it right again.

As for the umbrous looking ones in the other litter, keep them on til adulthood at least, and see how they turn out, they may surprise you! I quite like them actually, the look almost sable like, and i do like sable! LOL

W xx

 

[Jemma]

I'm still a newb at all this but it's interesting to see an umbrous and a non-umbrous red like that - thanks for posting pictures, Jack!

 

[Jack Garcia]

You're very welcome.

I will post more in a few days when they're a bit more grown.

 

[jusgus]

This may be a dumb question but why do they call them red. Beautiful mice either way Jack.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Because they're supposed to be red, like a red headed person or a red setter.

What a lot of people call "fawn," "gold," or "yellow" is not proper show red. It's just a washed-out, watered-down version (sometimes created with the same genes, sometimes not). They still make great pets, of course.

Finnmouse has a good page: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/red.html

 

[moustress]

Why belittle other colors? Really! What's the point of this?! Fawn, gold and yellow are all recognized by some clubs as standard colors, and fine colors they are!

These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.

 

[Jack Garcia]

These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.

Of course they're colors, but washed out versions of the others, such as off-white or eggshell-colored paint can be described as a muddied up version of pure white. "Pure," "watered down," "muddied up," "warm," "cool," and so forth are all ways to describe color. Value and hue are important parts of color: http://char.txa.cornell.edu/language/el ... /color.htm

 

[moustress]

Just because you got mousies from Europe doesn't give you the right to put down other colors like this, Jack. So what if you have red meeces? Big deal. It doesn't matter what kind of rodents you have, you will always be small potatoes as long as you continue to try to put down others in order to puff yourself up.

And I'm sure no one else would think that my fawn mousies are 'washed out' or watered down'. It's just a different genotype with different modifiers. Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.

 

[Jack Garcia]

I've never denied that I hold high standards for mice. You may choose not to accept my opinions, as is your wont.

To be sure, these mice are poor in other areas--mainly type but also temperament, somewhat. It's a trade-off. You get mice who are the right shade of red, but lack in other areas, or mice who have good type and lack in color, or mice who lack in all those areas except temperament (like yours).

If you cannot use judgment-laden terms such as "good," or "bad," or "too light," or "too dark," or "washed-out," or "rich," there's no point in breeding for show. It's all about getting things right. As many things as possible, not just pet-qualities.

It's fine that you're a pet-breeder, but you may not force your disregard for color (or type, or whatever) on others. We simply do different things with the same species of animals. We actually have more in common than not.

And I'm sure no one else would think that my fawn mousies are 'washed out' or watered down'.

As I'm sure some people would. They're not even the right color for fawn. And that's ok since you only breed for pets. Do you mind if I create a poll with pictures of your mice asking this very question? I can do it here, on one of my websites, or elsewhere. Or you can do it. Either way, you'll see the same results.

It's just a different genotype with different modifiers. Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.

You're mistaking criticism for negativity. They're not always the same. Without honest (hard to hear, but honest) appraisals and words or terms that some folks don't like (in relation to our standards), the fancy would never advance. We'd all be sitting at home breeding poorly-colored, poorly-typed mice and never showing, never comparing, never exchanging ideas on what the "right" color/shade/body is, and so forth.

I know it hurts to hear that all your hard work isn't what some people (or mouse clubs) want, yet it's the truth and that's ok. If you're confident in your own abilities and accomplishments as a pets-only/hobby breeder, you will take that criticism in the right way (or deflect it all together) since judgments such as "too pale," "too weak," and "too small" don't apply to mice who are pets-only. Uniquely-colored, small mice with modest ears (or whatever the case may be) can make great pets. I've had plenty of them over the years.

 

[SarahY]

Moustress, Jack is a show breeder, as am I. The show standard for a red mouse is a deep, sparkling red with no sootiness. To us, this means that means pale, washed out, yellowy reds are not proper reds because we talk in show terms. This isn't snobbiness in any way, it's because show breeders have different (not necessarily 'better') goals and opinions than pet breeders do. Jack gave an appropriate answer to the question posted as far as I'm concerned.

Your negativity reflects very poorly on whatever value you may have as a member of this Forum.

Jack was not 'belittling' anyone or their mice, he was merely giving a show breeder's opinion. There is no need to take it so personally and there was certainly no need for this comment.

Sarah.

 

[SarahY]

These colors are colors, not just some 'washed out, watered down' anything.

Correct terminology is EXTREMELY important. When a colour has a name and a standard, people expect it to look a certain way. To say that a mouse is pale, dark, washed out, too brown, too bright, etc, etc example of it's variety lets people know that yes it has those genes but no it's not the show standard colour.

Say I was a new breeder and, after trawling through the NMC varieties pages and Finnmouse, I had decided on breeding red to show. I don't know anybody in the fancy and I see an advert saying "beautiful red mice for sale". I travel hours to pick them up, get there, and see that the 'reds' in question are in fact bright yellow - I'd think the breeder was either trying to con me because I was a new breeder or they knew next to nothing about mice.

Sarah.