[Seawatch Stud]

I keep reading new and inexperienced breeders posts about outcrossing. Outcrossing into a stud of mice is NOT someting to be taken lightly, or resorted to more often than is absoultely necessary. Radical outcrosses, like for example, to another variety must be considered a last resort. If and when your chosen variety needs an outcross to improve it, always wherever possible use the same variety from a different line. Only if there is no other way should you consider crossing to another variety. If you have no choice but to do it, cross OUT of your existing stud not IN to it. In other words keep crossed mice out of your main stud until you are certain there is something to be gained from putting them in. Fanciers have worked hard to create lines of show winning mice, and that work can very easily be undone by poor decision making. It takes years to build up a good stud, and one generation to ruin it.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Only if there is no other way should you consider crossing to another variety. If you have no choice but to do it, cross OUT of your existing stud not IN to it.

Phil, I thank you SO MUCH for posting this! You say it so well.

In America in particular, people cross incompatible varieties all the time, lose the hard work of other people in 2 or 3 generations, then speak about how their mice don't produce consistent animals. That's why there are truly so many mongrels floating around. This is unpopular to say, but true, and I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings about it, but fanciers who try to keep their lines pure often look at each other with a rolled eye when we hear something like, "I'm crossing my Himalayan to a chocolate broken." I think you probably have experienced what I'm talking about. It frustrates me so much to see people breeding incorrectly and making the same mistakes over and over. We even have people who say they breed show mice, but who cross things like tri and angora. Makes no sense, as it ruins both varieties.

I think if you're ever in doubt, only crossing like to like (i.e. black to black, or cinnamon to cinnamon, or tricolor to tricolor) is the best bet. You really can't go wrong with crossing only the same variety to each other, in nearly all cases.

 

[bethmccallister]

It's probably only because I'm still a newbie considering everyone elses experience...I've found myself enjoying the challenge of taking a mouse that has beautiful traits like a tri angora and working to separate them all out again...put the tri back on a standard mouse and put the angora on a PEW to work on type. I liked this example because I actually have a beautiful tri angora male that I've recently acquired and he really is gorgeous. Every time I look at his cute little face though I think...we need to fix you

 

[moustress]

Some folks just want mousie babies and don't care about what color they are. As long as they take good care of them, I see no problem with it it. Except, perhaps, for those who try to get someone to put a name to the nonstandard colors that show up in these kinds of pairings; that does bother just me a little. On the other hand, those who want to breed a certain color or coat type and have only pet store mousies to work with present an interesting challenge and those inquiries make sense to me.

 

[Stina]

IF you have access to well bred animals in the coats and color you are working with then yes, I generally agree with the original post. However you can't always be so lucky as to have the option to only work with the exact genes you are looking for. For example.....I am working on developing lines that don't currenty exist in the US. Black eyed silver (a/a d/d c^ch/c) is not currently standardized in any club that I'm aware of...but I am working on acheiving it and getting it standardized with the ECMA....however I don't have the option of using only related lines to work with b/c there aren't ANY to speak of. I HAVE to combine lines and unwanted genes...b/c not only is there no one working that specific variety, but also there really isn't anyone I have access to working with just plain blue! To get all the genes I need I am having to use lines that have undesired traits that I will have to work out in the future. It's worth it to me though to work on developing this line as I LOVE the idea of black eyed silver. It will be hard work, but that will make it all the more rewarding in the end.

 

[Roland]

We had discussions about inbreeding and outcrossing many times here and in other forums. Perhaps reading this thread adds some inside:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6142&hilit=Linebreeding

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!

 

[WillowDragon]

BE Silver is standardised in the NMC.

I tried to create it by making extreme dilute blue (a/a ce/ce d/d) didn't work... too brown. hehe

Getting back on topic, personally, I very rarely outcross at all.

 

[Jack Garcia]

I also almost never outcross.

When I do, it's out of my mice, instead of into them, like Phil said.

My PEWs are the only variety who have been outcrossed to different varieties a lot, because PEW is so easy in terms of color. In one generation, you have the identical original color back. You can't do that with any other variety. But doing that almost by default ruins the other variety being bred to the PEW.

 

[The Village Mousery]

lol i think i set this off, hides from phil ..... i only asked the best outcross for a broken marked lol

 

[WillowDragon]

You have a trio Art... you shouldn't need to outcross for a few generations at least.

 

[Stina]

BE Silver is standardised in the NMC.

Oh...lol Well so far as I'm aware its not anywhere in the US....I know it isn't with the ECMA. Regardless it doesn't change that I don't have access to any quality, pure, blues.

 

[Jack Garcia]

I wonder if leaden would work? I know one person who has true-breeding leaden, but she's far away.

 

[Stina]

I'm using c^ch and c...which shouldn't bring in the brownishness of c^e/c^e. And yeah....No one anywhere near me has leaden...as you know...lol

 

[evansrabbitranch]

Ok when I read the op's first post I was like, wow that is harsh. Then I read the rest of the posts and sat back and thought about it. When I joined I was just a feeder breeder who liked the variety of colors mice can be bred in. Both recognised and not. I joined here to learn more when I had to restart with a single pair of mice from two pet shops. I wanted to do more than just toss some mice together and have babies. I struggled with accepting what was being told to me about improving size (which I am actually seeing a difference with some simple steps!), now I am learning what to breed to what to improve what I have to a better, more recognised good colors. I'm just waiting for my new cages to come from the shop so I can put the males I want to use in 3, pair up some females in 3 then have 4 grow out cages. I learned to respect the breeding of mice here and I appreciate everyone here.

 

[Kage Davies]

I enjoy breeding colour mongrels that throw a selection of colours; but I keep detailed records of what has come from where and what colours, so when I sell the person who buys them know that their mouse is coming from a mixture of ancestors.

Right now part of the fun of breeding is trying for a bunch of different colours. But I don't even pretend to be a show breeder right now; my mice are physically show type, but my goal is to produce wonderful pets who are a range of colours. Mostly I want to gain experience and try stuff out. Show mouse breeding is serious business, and when I'm ready to settle on a variety I'll go to a breeder and take their advice on their lines.

I can tell there's a lot of pride and enjoyment in creating a show line and that it takes a lot of care and work. There's also a lot of enjoyment in experimenting though. But if you are seriously breeding for show, you have to keep the two totally seperate.

 

[Tinkers Mousery]

Well im sorry to say but i am one of those people who try outcrosses. these are only done with my pet mice ( and the babies are then sold as pets) i like to see the outcomes of different varietys that are bred together.
I am looking to go into showing, and hopefully aquireing some show mice very soon. the show mice will not be outcrossed and i will strive to try and improve those show mice in whatever what way i can.

I just love mice and whatever is not sold stays with me for pets.

 

[gothling]

i do it because none of my mice are show type, they never will be, i breed for feeders; and i just like seeing the results of 'if you put x with x this happens'.

i'm on this site because it was the best one i found on the subject of mouse breeding with a lot of good posts on diet health and other things. so i do not strictly fall in the fancy mouse breeders type as most people on here do. but i enjoy the pictures and stories of all the breeders out there that are doing this to get better show standards. i also left work as a tattooist of five years to do a new degree in wildlife education and media. this course had aspects from zoology, molecular biology, dna, ecology, diversity, animal behaviour, education and teaching, filming, photography, web design, radio, journalisum, graphic design, and presenting, so looking at the outcomes of crossing genetics is far more interesting to me at this time. i am sure that in a few years time i will branch out to show standard mice. but untill then i'm afraid you'll have to put up with my sub standard breeding experiments. i'm using my breeding thread to document it all. you'r replies to it so far has been very interesting! and it's nice to have people that will chat about the things i find interesting.

ps i am massivly dislexic and probably should use my dragon software to type all this up but you just feel like an idiot when someone else is in the room watching you talk to your computer.

 

[moustress]

I acquired some show meeces over ten years ago and used them to improve my pet store stock, The pairs of show meeces I got apparently didn't like each other enough to produce litters, which was frustrating, and a sorry waste. I think they may have been physically stressed by the cold when they were shipped from the west coast. The show boys did very well with my meeces, though.
It wasn't my plan to do things this way, but at least I was able put them to use.

 

[PPVallhunds]

my mice are not show quality, but ive found it allmost impossible to find mice in my area. I like the chalange of trying the breed a certain colour, i LOVE fox and had given up on ever seeing one let alown owning one, but ive realised i could breed a fox eventualy with the mice i have. Once i have the fox ill be working on improving the quality of my mice, i would one day like to give showing a try with foxes but i know breeding up to a show quality mouse will take a long time. Im keeping records of who has been bred to who with photos so anyone thinking of buying one of my mice can see whats behind them. We all have to start somewhere and work with what we can get.