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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Surely the numbers of Members of mouse clubs in the States should be proportional to those in the uk ? I thought our American friends were good at Marketing ?

PP.S. Yes the last comment I hope will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended, I feel a good debate coming on .

Gary.
 

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We don't, here in the US, have have a century of tradition that exists in the UK, especially in England. It's ust a matter of time, though. I think that small furries are going to become more popular as people here in the US live in small spaces, and work longer hours. Mousies cost relatively little to maintain compared to dogs and cats.
 

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There is certainly the potential for a huge amount of people in clubs in the US.

This is gonna sound not great, and its a massive generalisation... BUT, I think there is also the huge chance that the American fancy once it truely comes into its own, will be vastly different to ours.
I don't think they will be quite so accepting to culling as what we are honestly... Americans do have to propensity to be quite extreme, I think the mouse fancy will turn out like the Rat Fancy personally. You're the devils own creation if you cull.

W xx
 

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You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.

I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the
sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.

Sorry, I went way off topic there. :oops:
 

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I agree with Willow culling will not be taken well here in the states mainly because I don't feel people look at the long term results. People see a mouse that you brought into the world now your just going to "cull" it people will jump all over you but they don't see that those runty kits are likely to grow in to runty sickly adults and that in some ways it is much kinder to cull them young then let them fight and live shorter lives as pets.

Just my thoughts
 

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I think if it was going to happen it would have already. I also think there are many reasons why it wont. There is no historical aspect to the mouse fancy in the U.S for a start, which for British fanciers is a very significant part of the NMC. I won a cup at the NMC annual show this year which was first awarded in 1901!. There are also the socio-economic reasons to take into account. In Britain the mouse fancy(and other small animal hobbies) grew out of heavily populated working class areas of a small nation. The U.S is a continent not a small island, so there is no equivalent population or circumstances. The fact the U.S is a continent is very significant to me. I have visited the states on many occasions from Florida to Alaska and everywhere in between., and its huge!. The distances inolved for mouse fanciers travelling to shows across the U.S are mind boggling. Its as far from New York to L.A as it is from London to New York!. For these reasons, and probably many others its just not really viable for a mouse club like the NMC to function there. I would say the U.S fanciers are a very dedicated bunch to keep and show mice at all in these circumstances and I raise my glass to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
moustress said:
You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.

I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the
sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.

Sorry, I went way off topic there. :oops:
I well remember an interesting find in England wherby mice had been living in a chiller. (It was an industrial chiller and the size of a house. The mice were found to have much denser and longer coats than normal,and this was reported in a scientific journal. The interesting point is that the mice had no time to evolve naturally to the low temperatures in the chiller,and the assumption was that they have the ability to change in response to new enviromental circumstances.The chiller had only been inplace for three years.
 

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I'll be back. said:
moustress said:
You know, Willow, that I have proposed the idea that 'American' meeces are significantly different already, having descended from American house mice. While it's true that US and English show meeces can interbreed, producing fertile young, the same is true of all varieties of dogs and cats, and look how different they look, behave, and the different dietary and other health requirements that exist.

I'm seriously considering trying to house some meeces in an unheated crawl space next to my mousery. I want to expand eventually anyway, but I'm have a somewhat morbid interest in seeing how the distribution of brown fat differs in meeces born and raised in significantly different temperatures. It's not something I will do this winter, most likely, but I'm the sort of person who is always agitating with a million 'whys' about everything having to do with mousies (actually about everything under the
sun). I suspect that my meeces may have lost much of their brown fat due to generations being bred in warm temps. Maybe... we'll ust have to wait and see if I can figure this out.

Sorry, I went way off topic there. :oops:
I well remember an interesting find in England wherby mice had been living in a chiller. (It was an industrial chiller and the size of a house. The mice were found to have much denser and longer coats than normal,and this was reported in a scientific journal. The interesting point is that the mice had no time to evolve naturally to the low temperatures in the chiller,and the assumption was that they have the ability to change in response to new enviromental circumstances.The chiller had only been inplace for three years.
I remember that too Gary, I believe they were found to have significantly longer claws too, assumedly to be able to grip on the ice particles on the floor.

Moustress, I wasn't so much talking about the differences in the actual mice, though that is true. I was talking about a difference in the fancy as a whole, attitudes and opinions of the people involved.

W xx
 

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Seawatch is right on track. The actual land and distance of the United States is too huge for the same kind of mouse fancy, I think. It's comparable in size to Australia, another country that has difficulty in keeping a mouse fancy together.

The AFRMA is our oldest club (existing since the 1980s, if I remember correctly) and it is our best-funded, most professional, and most active (due to the fact that it's in a huge population area--Los Angeles). As an example, from me to the AFRMA is 2200 miles. According to Google, this is about the same distance between London, England and Jerusalem, Israel.

And I live in the middle of the country! If you lived further north or east, such as folks in Maine, you'd have to travel around 3500 miles unless you wanted to take the hassle to move between countries (through Canada), and with live animals that brings even more challenges. Considering the difficulty and expense of taking mice on planes, that's a five or six day trip by the time you stop to sleep and eat, and a five or six day trip back, so in practical purposes you're talking about a two week trip to show mice.

The ECMA solved this problem by moving locations every few months, but that means our shows are sparse and far-between because we have to be in one state in March and another in October/November, and our attendees are rarely the same (Jenny (WNT) and/or I are the only people who go to every single one) because people can't travel across the country every few months. We operate on an all-volunteer skeleton crew because like nearly all small animal clubs in the US we're so underfunded and paid for by one or two individuals. Member fees do help but unless you have a million members, traveling such long distances is super expensive.

I wouldn't be surprised if in fact we had similar percentages of people who are interested in mice as does the UK. What's different is that our country is enormous and we're super spread out. Even in NYC or LA (the two largest population centers), mouse people are still spread out with maybe three or four people who are serious fanciers. AFRMA shows rarely have more than half a dozen attendees. That's the single biggest issue in getting the American mouse fancy more developed, I think--geography.

Honestly, as an American who culls heavily, inbreeds heavily, and tells people not to breed petstore mice, I am looked at as a mean old a nutter, and I do have enemies because of it! I have a feeling that in the UK this would all be normal.

All this is why I would love to move to England. Any English citizens wanna marry me (male or female, I don't care)? :p
 

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WillowDragon said:
All this is why I would love to move to England. Any English citizens wanna marry me (male or female, I don't care)?
Are you rich?
Hehe...but aren't all Americans equally wealthy, greedy, and stupid?

If I were rich enough to move without marriage, I'd've done so!

I've actually looked into immigration before and it seems the higher the education you've achieved, the easier is it. In 2-3 years I'll have the terminal degree in my field so if nothing else I'll have enough money to visit, as I plan to! :p

I have a good friend from England who moved to the US (through marriage) when he was in his teens (he's in his 30s now) and he can't imagine that the "real reason" that I'd like to live in England is to go to mouse shows. He's thinks I'm absolutely crazy but I'd love to. lol

I'll be back. said:
send me a photo of your shed.
:lol:
 

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CatWoman: You are becoming indispenseble! I want to see that article.

Erica08: Trying not to take what you said as a personal affront, I have to say that I do not cull pinkies and my mousies are anything but sickly. One of my does, Hazel, deceased, had really big litters of at least 10, one with 12, and they were all lovely long bodied darlings, most of which lived well over two years. A couple are still alive at over three years (2 or 3 does). I'd also add that smaller doesn't necessarily mean unhealthy. On the other hand, I do agree that many US pet breeders (and probably a good percentage elsewhere in the world) are excessively sentimental when it comes to culling whether it be pinkies or undesirable or sick adults. And as far as breeding really large mousies is concerned, I think that proportions are more important than overall size, although I do like nice big mousies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
All I said was that I thought americans were good at advertising, now we got Jack trying to find a partner male or female, offers of marridge, a fight over culling, lol, its just like the lunch table at a show! magic. Wait for a mod to slap the table with an oi oi you lot- red cards or lock !!
 

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Jack Garcia said:
I've actually looked into immigration before and it seems the higher the education you've achieved, the easier is it. In 2-3 years I'll have the terminal degree in my field so if nothing else I'll have enough money to visit, as I plan to! :p
I have terrible news for you, Jack. Assuming it's the one mentioned on your website, I have the degree of which you speak and it has a terrible tendency to continue costing money, rather than bringing in any money to put toward more leisurely, personal pursuits. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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