[Roland]

Hi,

I do not understand the discussion in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5230
and hope that someone could enlighten me. For me the most reliable source of information about mouse genetics is Jax. They have a definition of Pearl (gene code pe) as a simple autosomal recessive mutation on chromosome 13. Therefore nobody can "recreate" it by breeding, there is only yes or no: If the mouse is pe/pe it is pearl, if it is Pe/* it is not. If Jax is true, nobody can create a Pearl by simple breeding of Pe/Pe mice, not from Chinchilla or Silveragouti or what ever. Nope.
All you can get is something looking similar to a Pearl more or less. If pe is lost, it is lost until the mutation happens by chance again. Could be tomorrow or not in hundred years.
Here is the link to the Jax article:
http://www.informatics.jax.org/wksilver ... e5-7.shtml

Best regards, Roland
Chilloutarea Mousery - Tricolor , Splashed , Merle , Recessive Red
The place where science meets fun!

 

[SarahC]

I can't enlighten you,I know nothing.You should subscribe to the NMC news and join the debate.The mouse pictured is a self from silver grey breeding.

 

[SarahC]

I have a question for you Roland.How can you tell the real pearl from something that appears similar.Is it possible?

 

[Roland]

I can't enlighten you,I know nothing.You should subscribe to the NMC news and join the debate.The mouse pictured is a self from silver grey breeding.

Hi Sarah, I am already a member and read the news. I love it, btw.
Did you read the Jax article?
Regards, Roland.

 

[moustress]

I bet the problem is the language of genotype that mouse fanciers use; not all factors are defined separately as loci or modifiers. We like to keep things simple when it's really not.

 

[SarahC]

yes I did read it.I suppose I want some one to show me an actual definite genetic pearl and say this mouse is a pearl and this mouse is not.I'll have to hope the skin Eric has answers my question.I have some of his mice ,blacks bred out of his pearl buck and silver greys but can the pearl be in there or would it have shown up by now?Then there is the pearl from Finland but I don't know it's origins.Is it a mouse that just looks like a pearl.How can you tell?It isn't black ticked but is it just a good pearl that would have distinct ticking and the rest not?The bit about the yellow tinging was interesting and the white mask.

 

[WNTMousery]

Please email Karen Robbins. She is president of the AFRMA and has imported UK Pearl. She is very knowledgeable about it. Her email is afrma (at) afrma.org

 

[Seawatch Stud]

I am not convinced that the mice shown as Pearls in the U.K were ever true Pearls. I think the vast majority of pearls shown in England were derived from Silver Greys. I have found an account of the same mouse winning best in show two weeks running in the 1930s once as a Pearl, the next week as a Silver Grey!. If this kind of confusion existed then what hope have we of sorting it out now?. I think if it looks like a Pearl, and can win at shows as a Pearl, well then for me at least its a Pearl!. We show Phenotypes not Genotypes. I dont care where it came from, or what it is genetically, I only care if it looks like the animal the standard describes.

 

[SarahC]

Please email Karen Robbins. She is president of the AFRMA and has imported UK Pearl. She is very knowledgeable about it. Her email is afrma (at) afrma.org

I have looked at the pictures of her mice and Erics mice but still it comes back to how do you know what the mouse in front of you is genetically.I think probably the answer is you don't and that Phil is right ,people make the assumption on what the mouse is visually.I am looking forward to reading the second part of Erics article and an article on Phils theory next month.I have some spare boxes,Im going to throw everything in,Erics mice,the mouse from Finland and the light bug eyed silver greys and some black ones that have white undercoats and see what comes out over the next year.

 

[WNTMousery]

Please email Karen Robbins. She is president of the AFRMA and has imported UK Pearl. She is very knowledgeable about it. Her email is afrma (at) afrma.org

I have looked at the pictures of her mice and Erics mice but still it comes back to how do you know what the mouse in front of you is genetically.I think probably the answer is you don't and that Phil is right ,people make the assumption on what the mouse is visually.I am looking forward to reading the second part of Erics article and an article on Phils theory next month.I have some spare boxes,Im going to throw everything in,Erics mice,the mouse from Finland and the light bug eyed silver greys and some black ones that have white undercoats and see what comes out over the next year.

Are you saying just throw them all in together?

Why not set up some test matings that cross the different possible pearls with each other to see exactly what comes of each combination before possibly ruining what is left of them?

 

[SarahY]

WNT, SarahC is less likely to ruin them than anyone. She's a superb breeder, has won many top awards with her mice, has made her mark on many varieties - improving them to a winning standard from just a few rubbish examples, and has been doing this a lot longer than you. So perhaps a bit more respect is deserved.

Sarah.

 

[Seawatch Stud]

As one of the best stockpersons in the U.k with a proven track record as an exhibitor of some of the most difficult varieties of fancy mice I think Sarah should trust her own judgement and instincts here. I cant think of anyone less likely to "ruin whats left of them" than her.

 

[WNTMousery]

It wasn't intended as an insult.

Do you think throwing them all together in the same box is a good choice?

 

[SarahY]

Well it certainly came across as one. Think before you post.

Sarah.

 

[Seawatch Stud]

It wasn't intended as an insult.

Do you think throwing them all together in the same box is a good choice?

Yep.

 

[WNTMousery]

...before possibly ruining what is left of them?

omg, I said "possibly ruining"

I didn't say, "She's a horrible breeder who has no idea what she's doing and is going to ruin all the pearls!"

I'm so sorry you didn't like the way I worded the sentence. It wasn't written in an insulting way or to insinuate Sarah doesn't know what she's doing. :? It was to provoke thought about the POSSIBILITY of ruining what is left by "throw everything in" some spare boxes (her words, not mine!!).

No need to be so sensitive. It is the internet and tone cannot be expressed very well at all so you just have to assume it is a friendly tone unless blatantly obvious that it is not (which isn't the case here).

 

[SarahC]

oh I only went to answer the phone and now look.Well wnt I have had them for about 7 years and managed to keep them when all others were lost.They've been ticking along quite nicely but I have decided that this year is to be their year and I'm going to breed a lot.The only difference is the Finnish mouse who has until now been kept in a separate line.The young he has produced are looking good and I can't see any reason to keep going along a separate route.I have enough of a foundation stock to allow for the odd mistake.Thanks for the vote of confidence Phil and Sarah and thanks for the pictures Phil,they make me optimistic.I'm just interested in all view points.

 

[Stina]

Are you interested in determining what is happening genetically with your pearls? If so, wouldn't you get a better idea of what is going on genetically if you test cross some specific animals instead of having breeding groups? I just don't see how mixing everything together will allow determination of what is going on genetically.

 

[SarahC]

I was interested in knowing if they are the real deal,yes.They are all related,line bred apart from the one from Europe.I can tell you what they produce when bred together,silver greys,blacks and pearls or are they pearls?that was what I was getting at.I must add that it's a project to enjoy not life and death,I really am interested in every ones input.If nothing good turns up I won't be sobbing into my pillow but I do like a challenge.

 

[Stina]

Perhaps try breeding some different appearing does from the related line to a buck from the european line and keep track of what the different does produce? That should allow you to determine if you have "overlapping" or all the same gene....or completely different genes...in the 2 lines?