[Rhasputin]

When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.

I think you missed my meaning It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.

Sarah xxx

What would be your definition of 'backyard breeder'.
Curious because different people will say different things.

As for puppies, a backyard breeder could litterally be someone whose dog just got pregnant in their 'backyard' and they sold the puppies without giving a flying fart about the pedigree or getting somewhere with the breeding. Orrr, a puppy mill, where the animals are confined in small cages (I feel like lab cages are similar to these. . .) and bred over and over and over just for the money.

 

[Jack Garcia]

From my experience WNT, when you get 'breeders' like that, you've basically got a clique of backyard breeders that either don't care or know no better, but it's ok because they have their fwends to back them up and recommend them to naïve potential owners so that they can shift their unending offspring..

This is exactly the way it happens in the US. Unfortunately, there are far more unscrupulous, careless breeders out there than there are people who have achievable goals in mind and breed toward standards of some sort with both the animals' well-being and the competition in mind. And to be clear it's not just a distinction between breeding for show and breeding for pets, although it does often encompass that distinction--you can be a pets-only breeder and be perfectly fine in terms of the number of animals you breed, how well you keep them, your adoption policies, etc.

For example, I know one woman (not a member here or anywhere I can think of off the top of my head) who has hundreds of cages on three floors of her house, feeds all her animals only one day a week because of all the time it takes, and has a significant infestation of argente wild mice, who originated from some escaped pet argentes who bred with wild mice years ago and were never controlled. Animal Services has been called to her house at least once, and she has dead cats in her freezer who have been dead for an unknown period of time (she just can't part with them). To make a long story short, there is seriously something wrong there. But only a couple of us have ever been inside her house to see (or smell) this disaster, and she portrays herself as a knowledgeable, trustworthy person to get small animals from, even as she is pushing them off onto people because she has so many sub-par, sickly animals. She refuses to get help or even acknowledge her problem, yet she is always asking people for more mice, and she lashes out at you when you refuse her sick mice admission into a show or refuse to give her your mice. If you so much as mention a contract, her mental condition, or anything else she does not want to think about, you are labeled all sorts of things (as I have been). This would be bad enough if that were the extent of the situation, but she has enablers who encourage her and insist she doesn't have a problem. None of them have been to her house, though.

This is the very kind of situation which inspires people who take breeding to the standards and showing seriously to draw up contracts in the first place, which only makes irrational people like the one described above even more angry and vocal. But there's no point in having high, uniform standards if you don't keep and advocate them as consistently as possible, you know?

 

[Jack Garcia]

What would be your definition of 'backyard breeder'.
Curious because different people will say different things.

A backyard breeder has no particular goals other than "to make more," often cannot properly care for all her animals (which may number into the hundreds or more), and often lacks in knowledge related to the breeding and care of said animals, and usually has supporters or enablers who implicitly or explicitly give her reassurance that everything's ok. This is true for any animal, not just mice.

This page is geared toward dogs:

http://www.boxermap.com/reputablebreeder.html

...but the general sentiments apply to most animals.

 

[Rhasputin]

Yeah, that's what I figured. Anyone who is 'only in it for the money' is probably no good.

I met a man, when my friend went to buy chickens from him. Who used to be a 'feeder/lab breeder' and he showed me tiny little homemade lab-style mouse cages, that couldn't have been any larger than maybe the dimensions of a piece of printer paper. He said he kept 5 mice in them at once, and kept a buck in with the five does, to have back to back to back litters with virtually no consideration for the animals, and no goals other than to make money. I didn't want to say anything to him, because he seemed kind of . . . scary, a very religious man, who upon walking onto his property (to do buisness none the less) would give you a little plastic coin with a bible verse on it (something about 'are you going to burn in hell?', and talk about how you needed to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, ALL BEFORE even starting to talk buisness, or introducing himself. :roll:

Rant/complaining over.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Being involved for what little money there is isn't necessarily as much a problem to me as not knowing the history, potential, and proper care of the animals you're breeding.

For example, some large-scale feeder breeders (thousands and thousands of animals sold monthly) do make profit on their animals and it is possible (though difficult) to do it on that scale and still meet all the minimum requirements for quality, healthy food animals animals.

From the list above, these are the most important things to look for when dealing with mice:

1. Dedication to producing quality mice is serious avocation. Has so much invested in mice that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell only to approved buyers.

2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or inbreeding.

3. Does not breed does younger than age 2-3 months. Can afford and produce veterinary bills of health if needed.

4. Written contractual commitment to replace a mouse with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem, also contractual agreement in place about the care of mice and their descendants (optional).

5. Loves the breed/variety and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.

6. Has an investment in mouse equipment and the environment is sanitary and loving. Will allow you into their home or mouse shed to inspect the area at request.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local mouse clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred mice. Shows their mice as an objective test of how the stock measures up. Some clubs are more reputable than others, here.

8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a mouse. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks," without negative judgment for those people who simply want pets.

9. Prices will be at the high end of local range, or private treaties. At most clubs, there is a minimum selling price on mice at all shows (at the ECMA it is USD $5), though many reputable breeders in the US do not charge at all unless at shows. Price will never reflect all that is invested in the mice, though. Regardless as to what is charged, a reputable breeder rarely or never profits from the sale of mice. Has an established waiting list for the pups.

10. After purchase, will help you with any problems. Will take back a mouse you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with contractual agreement(s) (optional) and with club affiliation. But even here, you must be careful. There have been a few clubs in the last few years which have very low or hazily-defined standards and let things like health hazards and poorly-bred animals slip through the cracks too easily.

(In reproducing and modifying this list, I'm citing fair use.)

 

[WNTMousery]

When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.

I think you missed my meaning It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.

Sarah xxx

No, I understood what you meant.

I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.

The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?

 

[WolfWhisper]

No, I understood what you meant.

I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.

The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?

Some of the ones you are referring to shunned the 'reputable' (your words, not everyone agrees on it though) breeders because of the subject of this thread, contracts. Most, if not all of the ones you refer to don't agree with you. Disreputable does not mean, does differently/has different beliefs then I do. Just because someone chooses to work with their stock to make it showable (and whether or not they choose to breed every variety/color they have for the show table) and does not go to one breeder purchase/trade/are given 'showable' mice, breeds them together and has instant 'show quality' does not make them disreputable. The division is because of the very high and mighty attitude some people have been showing for some time. The people you refer to are tired of being referred to as unethical because they enjoy non-standardized color/coat combinations or more than 2-3 varieties. I don't see the English and other country's breeders putting down anyone for their choices in varieties/colors/coats/etc here but it's rampant in the US with the 'reputable' breeders.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Please keep direct, personal attacks in PMs, or you're going to get yet another thread locked.

 

[WNTMousery]

No, I understood what you meant.

I was just saying the disreputable breeders have formed their own group after the reputable ones have shunned them and are trying to revolt, so to speak. lol These backyard breeders are the worse kind because the fly under the flag of responsibility and ethics when they are basically the farthest from. I hope that makes sense.

The issue of being shunned by the reputable breeders makes no matter to them because they can trade and share among themselves. Ya know?

Some of the ones you are referring to shunned the 'reputable' (your words, not everyone agrees on it though) breeders because of the subject of this thread, contracts. Most, if not all of the ones you refer to don't agree with you. Disreputable does not mean, does differently/has different beliefs then I do. Just because someone chooses to work with their stock to make it showable (and whether or not they choose to breed every variety/color they have for the show table) and does not go to one breeder purchase/trade/are given 'showable' mice, breeds them together and has instant 'show quality' does not make them disreputable. The division is because of the very high and mighty attitude some people have been showing for some time. The people you refer to are tired of being referred to as unethical because they enjoy non-standardized color/coat combinations or more than 2-3 varieties. I don't see the English and other country's breeders putting down anyone for their choices in varieties/colors/coats/etc here but it's rampant in the US with the 'reputable' breeders.

It is apparent you are misinformed. I've never said anyone was unethical for their choice to breed non-standardized types of mice. I, myself, breed manx (tailless), hairless, fuzzy hairless and rex, in addition to my satin and standard coats. I'd love for you to prove who said something about somebody being unethical because of breeding a certain color in a certain coat type. I know you can't.

People with problems usually deny they have problems. No surprise there.

To get back on topic after ANOTHER blatant disregard for forum rules against personal attacks: I use contracts and I'm not ashamed of it. Unfortunately I didn't use them seriously enough in the past with people I thought were my friends, who lied, used and abused my friendship and trust. Sucks for me and the mice who are now forced to live in poor conditions with incompetent breeders.

As has been said in this thread, most serious exhibition breeders have faced similar problems. It happens all too often. We are trying to talk about it openly and honestly without fear of more personal attacks and it seems the UK breeders are not as vocal about the subject (although they have indeed spoken up about it!) because they are lucky enough to not have as many nutters as we do in the US.

 

[WolfWhisper]

There was no personal attack. :roll:

I said the people you are referring to disagree with your opinion of things.

 

[WNTMousery]

No, not directly. However, the people on this forum are not as dumb as you'd like them to be and can read your implications as easy as you make them.

Please send me a private message if you have anything else to say to me, as this is not the venue for such things. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[WolfWhisper]

I do not need to send any private messages.

This thread is about contracts and the 'reputable' breeders have been shunned over that very subject.

Disreputable and reputable are an opinion.

When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently. :|

And you were referring to a specific situation here, the same group you refer to when you speak of disreputable.

However, the people on this forum are not as dumb as you'd like them to be and can read your implications as easy as you make them.

Yep, they sure aren't.

 

[WNTMousery]

Curious, you've only been responding to induce drama on the boards. When is the last time you've offered anything to any of the other threads?

Actually, it doesn't matter. I'll be the bigger person and walk away. Have a great weekend, Tracey! :gwavec

 

[WolfWhisper]

I'm not responding to induce drama. Why is it when anyone posts contradicting what you say or has another opinion then you they're making a personal attack and causing drama?

:roll:

 

[DomLangowski]

Im locking this thread, and will comment on this later.