[nuedaimice]

I see the point in this, but I like the words of a top fancier who told me that as soon as the mice go in your shed, they're yours. You can easily f'em up in a few weeks with the wrong food, poor care, and bad selection for breeding, through inexperience or just a lack of ability. I have given people mice and seen this happen in a few months.

Sure, it's irritating if the stock you gave them was good, and they mess it up or give up completely, but i believe that if you just expect that to happen as default, you can only be pleasantly surprised if it all goes well. Personally, once mice leave my shed, i wouldn't weant them back nine times out of 10, or if i had to have them back, i'd probably just end up culling them.

This is a very interesting point of view. I had not thought about it this way. But I do like that part about as soon as the mice go in your shed, they're yours. I think, that would be my philosophy, except most U.S. breeders don't keep their mice in sheds.. LOL I guess I'd have to say once they go in your spare room/bedroom/closet/living room/basement/etc. LOL Or maybe once they are in your mouse cage they are yours.

 

[windyhill]

They way I see it, once the mouse leaves your mousery, its no longer yours. You no longer have a say in hows its raised, bred,etc. You just have to hope you made the right choice in adopting it out. You can express how you would like it to be bred, raised, but that doesnt mean they will. I screen where my mice go, and look for someone with the same mice beliefs as me and hope for the best.
I looked into contracts, but found that even with them theres not much you can do. More then likey if you took the case to court it would get laughed out. I cant really see someone enforcing a contract on a mouse (or any animal really)

 

[Rhasputin]

What's the point in having a contract, when they don't hold up legally?
Doesn't it then just irritate people and cause trouble?

 

[Jack Garcia]

Some (though not all) do hold up in court, but in order for them to do so you have to have legal help in writing them and have them signed before a notary public. It's ridiculous how long they have to be, too. The only ones I've heard of going to court are ones for rats. I think that might just be because there are more people who keep rats?

 

[Rhasputin]

Shesh. I see.

 

[WNTMousery]

Well-written contracts do indeed hold up in court if you are willing to pursue it.

 

[Rhasputin]

Okay. So do they -have- to be written with the help of an attorney to be legally stable? Or does it just help a lot?

-puts on her learning cap-

 

[Jack Garcia]

It depends on how well versed you are on your state's or commonwealth's law. It only cost me $150 to get an attorney to read over my own contract and make it applicable in all fifty states. I also know a notary, so that part's easy too. Needless to say, there's no specialty of mouse law, so you just have to make sure the person you're talking with knows what they're doing. My lawyer thinks I'm a little bit crazy, but she's very helpful and I'm glad I have her.

 

[Cait]

I have to say, as an English person I find it both amusing and slightly worrying that you have a lawyer 'on hand' for no particular reason. :lol:

 

[WillowDragon]

My partner is a clerk in a law firm, so I would easily be able to have lawyers 'on hand' for freebie work (I know a few of them and they are lovely) but I have to say... they would probably think i am very insane if i ever asked to look over a mouse contract for me LOL

 

[Jack Garcia]

I know! Some mouse people over here are really crazy (and I do include myself in this)! I knew her before she ever helped me with legal stuff, though, so I can't imagine what it would be like to call up an unfamiliar law office and say "I need help with mouse issues" and get all the common questions ("What do you do with them?, Do they bite?")...

 

[Rhasputin]

I have to say, as an English person I find it both amusing and slightly worrying that you have a lawyer 'on hand' for no particular reason. :lol:

We're Americans! It's what we do! Find good excuses to sue people.
Sue the pants off of someone, and get rich, the American dream. :lol:

 

[windyhill]

We're Americans! It's what we do! Find good excuses to sue people.
Sue the pants off of someone, and get rich, the American dream. :lol:

Aint that the truth! I dont have a lawyer, but I know alot of people that do

 

[tanzaniterose]

This is a very interesting discussion, I've heard of quite a few people attempting to write up contracts of sale for their animals, i.e give it/them back to the breeder if you're no longer interested or able to provide the proper care, you can't breed this one, etcetc, but it's interesting to hear that the few cases that do get taken to courts are generally laughed off. As you've all basically said, once an animal has left your care you effectively have no grounds to stand on to tell the new owners what they can and can't do. It's like if the previous owner of my car suddenly appears at my door and says "You've driven far too many miles and it's all dirty, I'm taking it back!!".

Although I do like contracts in the sense that they put off most of the unwanted types that want a quick profit off any future offspring, animal hoarders or nutters (as Cait eloquently put it ), they do also have the potential to put off some decent homes. I know that if I had been faced with a long threatening list of 'DON'T DO THIS OR ELSE I'LL GET CHUUU' when getting my latest mousie off Cait, I'd have been somewhat concerned thinking that she was going to appear at my door or window periodically to see if he was being mistreated!

I completely understand where the breeders with these contracts are coming from, but in my opinion, what's wrong with just breeding what you need to continue a line, and only letting out a couple that you won't need to people you can trust?

 

[SarahY]

I think contracts are more about one's reputation within the fancy - breeders all talk to each other and word of a broken contract would get around. The UK rat fancy is mad for contracts, particularly pet only ones. If a contract was broken it probably wouldn't get taken to court, but the owner would be totally ostracised and would not be able to buy rats from most breeders for a very long time.

Sarah xxx

 

[Jack Garcia]

That's how it is in the US, too, up to a point.

One person who adopted mice from a friend of mine ended up being an animal hoarder (who hid her problem well and denied it, like most addicts do) and when that situation came to light, that was when the contract issue became very important.

Unfortunately, there are a not a few dishonest, mis-leading people involved in the mouse fancy. You have to be careful who you deal with and who you give your animals to.

Because they're so cheap to obtain and easy to breed poorly, more people have them than really should. With dogs, they'd rightfully be called backyard breeders or puppy mills. With mice they're called "hobby breeders."

And there you have my most unpopular opinion of the day!

 

[WNTMousery]

I think contracts are more about one's reputation within the fancy - breeders all talk to each other and word of a broken contract would get around. The UK rat fancy is mad for contracts, particularly pet only ones. If a contract was broken it probably wouldn't get taken to court, but the owner would be totally ostracised and would not be able to buy rats from most breeders for a very long time.

Sarah xxx

When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently. :|

The things I wish I had known. lol

 

[tanzaniterose]

From my experience WNT, when you get 'breeders' like that, you've basically got a clique of backyard breeders that either don't care or know no better, but it's ok because they have their fwends to back them up and recommend them to naïve potential owners so that they can shift their unending offspring..

Tbh one of the things I do like about the mouse & rat fancy is that it does have an active & reputable showing and breeding front. I'm primarily in gerbils, and we have absolutely nothing like this to draw upon when looking for recommended breeders, the NGS (national gerbil society) has basically dissolved into the abyss and the AGS (american) is, in a nutshell, an unethical society & an effective clique to look up to, and European societies seem to keep to themselves. Anyone who can throw two gerbils together and breed these days is called a 'breeder' and if you have very little clue on what to look for in a good breeder and setup, you're basically screwed. You can't even rely on word of mouth, because the only word is through the internet, and someone that may be well-loved on one forum will be disliked on another.

So yes, contracts or not you guys are quite lucky.

 

[WNTMousery]

I think I love you.

 

[SarahY]

When you have a group of "breeders" who band together and employ the same (subpar) standards for breeding, they don't really care about reputations, apparently.

I think you missed my meaning It's the reputable breeders that I was talking about. The UK rat show breeding community as a whole care A LOT about their rats and breeding for health and temperament, and these are the people with whom reputations matter when it comes to buying rats. Most backyard breeders couldn't give a flying poo.

Sarah xxx