[Jack Garcia]

Most of the European mice I've bought (but not all) are contract-free.

Most of the American mice I've bought (but not all) are under contract.

Some of my own mice are under contract. Most are not.

What exactly do the contracts in the OP consist of?

Generally, a contract in the US may include things such as proper veterinary care for the animal, return of the animal if at any time the original owner breaks the terms of the contract (too common, unfortunately), stipulations as to which club(s) the mouse/mice must be shown under, and what should happen to the mice if the adopter dies or is incarcerated, etc. These contracts often go as far as three generations down the line, but sometimes as many as five (I have some under 5-generation contracts still). I've signed mouse contracts from KAW, WNT, CSB, and MyLM in the US, if I remember right. Each of them is at least two pages and each has a long list of requirements. Most others don't use written contracts, as far as I'm aware. I've never broken a contract, so I don't know if any of the breeders would actually take it to court, but I do turn my copies over to my lawyer, just in case something were to come of it (she lives near me so it's not a big deal) and she has told me some of them would not be enforceable because of their vagueness.

The terms and conditions in a contract are related (somewhat) to the concept of co-ownership of show dogs: http://greaterswiss.com/contracts.htm For one (or three or five) generations, you enter into a kind of co-ownership, then the contract dissolves.

The show mice who are under contract are generally the ones who have had a lot of work put into them and the original breeder wants the animals to be continued on properly. Breaking the contract by breeding them improperly (such as chinchilla to recessive yellow splashed) is a serious matter when you consider the years of work that have gone into improving the original mice, on both sides of the Atlantic.

I've never heard of contracts for mixed-ancestry or pet-typed mice. I'm sure they exist, though. I just don't personally ever buy those mice.

I have mixed-feelings about contracts, myself. I honor the ones I sign but I don't usually make other people sign contracts unless I am contractually bound to do so.

 

[Jack Garcia]

how many times have senior breeders let strains of winning mice go to persons who have been in the fancy a year or so, make all the right noises etc, only to find a year or so later that they have given up and the mice are down the pet store or worse. loads times . a contract saying that the mice have to be retuned to the original supplier if the fancier gives up the breed would be good. five generations-load of rubbuish ! a strain belongs to the breeder by then !

Yeah, by 5 generations the mice are the product of the (new) breeder. That's why all the ones I've encountered stop at 3 or 5 generations. After that, the contract dissolves.

Just like in the UK, in the US talented breeders have let strains of winning mice go to people who ended up doing bad by them. No matter how safe you are, sometimes it turns out the person you adopted to is a nutter, or worse, an animal hoarder. That's a big reason as to why the contracts exist in the US. But at the end of the day, it's a mixed-bag. Some good show breeders use them; others don't. Some only use them part of the time.

 

[Jack Garcia]

It seems like you have specific issues and questions for certain individuals. If this is the case, you should address these questions to them personally instead of making what seems to be thinly-veiled references on public forums where they may or may not even read (I know at least one of them doesn't have an account here...probably neither of them do). Thanks.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Unfortunately, that happens stateside, too!

Contracts could feasibly include clauses against it, I suppose.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Some (though not all) do hold up in court, but in order for them to do so you have to have legal help in writing them and have them signed before a notary public. It's ridiculous how long they have to be, too. The only ones I've heard of going to court are ones for rats. I think that might just be because there are more people who keep rats?

 

[Jack Garcia]

It depends on how well versed you are on your state's or commonwealth's law. It only cost me $150 to get an attorney to read over my own contract and make it applicable in all fifty states. I also know a notary, so that part's easy too. Needless to say, there's no specialty of mouse law, so you just have to make sure the person you're talking with knows what they're doing. My lawyer thinks I'm a little bit crazy, but she's very helpful and I'm glad I have her.

 

[Jack Garcia]

I know! Some mouse people over here are really crazy (and I do include myself in this)! I knew her before she ever helped me with legal stuff, though, so I can't imagine what it would be like to call up an unfamiliar law office and say "I need help with mouse issues" and get all the common questions ("What do you do with them?, Do they bite?")...

 

[Jack Garcia]

That's how it is in the US, too, up to a point.

One person who adopted mice from a friend of mine ended up being an animal hoarder (who hid her problem well and denied it, like most addicts do) and when that situation came to light, that was when the contract issue became very important.

Unfortunately, there are a not a few dishonest, mis-leading people involved in the mouse fancy. You have to be careful who you deal with and who you give your animals to.

Because they're so cheap to obtain and easy to breed poorly, more people have them than really should. With dogs, they'd rightfully be called backyard breeders or puppy mills. With mice they're called "hobby breeders."

And there you have my most unpopular opinion of the day!

 

[Jack Garcia]

From my experience WNT, when you get 'breeders' like that, you've basically got a clique of backyard breeders that either don't care or know no better, but it's ok because they have their fwends to back them up and recommend them to naïve potential owners so that they can shift their unending offspring..

This is exactly the way it happens in the US. Unfortunately, there are far more unscrupulous, careless breeders out there than there are people who have achievable goals in mind and breed toward standards of some sort with both the animals' well-being and the competition in mind. And to be clear it's not just a distinction between breeding for show and breeding for pets, although it does often encompass that distinction--you can be a pets-only breeder and be perfectly fine in terms of the number of animals you breed, how well you keep them, your adoption policies, etc.

For example, I know one woman (not a member here or anywhere I can think of off the top of my head) who has hundreds of cages on three floors of her house, feeds all her animals only one day a week because of all the time it takes, and has a significant infestation of argente wild mice, who originated from some escaped pet argentes who bred with wild mice years ago and were never controlled. Animal Services has been called to her house at least once, and she has dead cats in her freezer who have been dead for an unknown period of time (she just can't part with them). To make a long story short, there is seriously something wrong there. But only a couple of us have ever been inside her house to see (or smell) this disaster, and she portrays herself as a knowledgeable, trustworthy person to get small animals from, even as she is pushing them off onto people because she has so many sub-par, sickly animals. She refuses to get help or even acknowledge her problem, yet she is always asking people for more mice, and she lashes out at you when you refuse her sick mice admission into a show or refuse to give her your mice. If you so much as mention a contract, her mental condition, or anything else she does not want to think about, you are labeled all sorts of things (as I have been). This would be bad enough if that were the extent of the situation, but she has enablers who encourage her and insist she doesn't have a problem. None of them have been to her house, though.

This is the very kind of situation which inspires people who take breeding to the standards and showing seriously to draw up contracts in the first place, which only makes irrational people like the one described above even more angry and vocal. But there's no point in having high, uniform standards if you don't keep and advocate them as consistently as possible, you know?

 

[Jack Garcia]

What would be your definition of 'backyard breeder'.
Curious because different people will say different things.

A backyard breeder has no particular goals other than "to make more," often cannot properly care for all her animals (which may number into the hundreds or more), and often lacks in knowledge related to the breeding and care of said animals, and usually has supporters or enablers who implicitly or explicitly give her reassurance that everything's ok. This is true for any animal, not just mice.

This page is geared toward dogs:

http://www.boxermap.com/reputablebreeder.html

...but the general sentiments apply to most animals.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Being involved for what little money there is isn't necessarily as much a problem to me as not knowing the history, potential, and proper care of the animals you're breeding.

For example, some large-scale feeder breeders (thousands and thousands of animals sold monthly) do make profit on their animals and it is possible (though difficult) to do it on that scale and still meet all the minimum requirements for quality, healthy food animals animals.

From the list above, these are the most important things to look for when dealing with mice:

1. Dedication to producing quality mice is serious avocation. Has so much invested in mice that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell only to approved buyers.

2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or inbreeding.

3. Does not breed does younger than age 2-3 months. Can afford and produce veterinary bills of health if needed.

4. Written contractual commitment to replace a mouse with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem, also contractual agreement in place about the care of mice and their descendants (optional).

5. Loves the breed/variety and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.

6. Has an investment in mouse equipment and the environment is sanitary and loving. Will allow you into their home or mouse shed to inspect the area at request.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local mouse clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred mice. Shows their mice as an objective test of how the stock measures up. Some clubs are more reputable than others, here.

8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a mouse. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks," without negative judgment for those people who simply want pets.

9. Prices will be at the high end of local range, or private treaties. At most clubs, there is a minimum selling price on mice at all shows (at the ECMA it is USD $5), though many reputable breeders in the US do not charge at all unless at shows. Price will never reflect all that is invested in the mice, though. Regardless as to what is charged, a reputable breeder rarely or never profits from the sale of mice. Has an established waiting list for the pups.

10. After purchase, will help you with any problems. Will take back a mouse you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with contractual agreement(s) (optional) and with club affiliation. But even here, you must be careful. There have been a few clubs in the last few years which have very low or hazily-defined standards and let things like health hazards and poorly-bred animals slip through the cracks too easily.

(In reproducing and modifying this list, I'm citing fair use.)

 

[Jack Garcia]

Please keep direct, personal attacks in PMs, or you're going to get yet another thread locked.