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Herefords with poor markings?

5486 Views 54 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  RAP, 
R
I'm wondering if there is a specific look to herefords if they end up with poor markings. Are there any? :D

I was wondering if it was anything like banded, sometimes causing distinctly similar headspots and such?
I have some mice, that are 'broken marked', but I think that two of them (related) are poor bandeds with headspots, and that 4 or 5 of them (related, but not to the other two) look more like herefords, with a band trying to form.

I don't know, I guess I'l making connections and getting curious. :lol:
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nuedaimice
There are 3 variations (in dogs) on the "S Locus"

s^p which makes piebald, which would resemble our piebald, broken, and even marked mice.
s^i which makes the Irish pattern seen on Aussies, Border Collies, etc. This could easily be bred to resemble Hereford.
s^w which is usually a head marking on each side of the face (over both the eye and ear) and a rump marking, which does resemble the dutch mouse.

Any one of these could be present on the S Locus either together, or paired with another gene from the locus (s^p/s^i or s^p/s^w).

It may very well be the same for mice.
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J
We know for sure that white mouse markings occur on the Bt, W, Rw, and S loci, so it wouldn't surprise me if Dutch and/or hereford occurred on any of those, or on another locus entirely, assuming they're not identical or related to s/s, as they may be.
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R
I'm pretty sure Roland was talking about a study that showed that hereford was it's own locus. :eek:
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J
I remember that. Hmm...I found whatever he was saying to be confusing, though, to be honest. :p
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R
Well with the slight language barrier and the complex genetics, I have no idea either. :lol:
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J
I love Roland. I've spoken with him on the phone and we have many of the same friends "in real life," and many of the same interests, but I must say between my strong Southern accent and his German one, communication can be difficult. :p He's a great guy, though. :D
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T
Hello

i am a hereford breeder… and I also breed sib. husky… the big problem is between the mice and dogs genetic….. is not the same bat it have a lot of similar alleles… The big problem is the Nomenclature! You find a lot variety for the dogs and a lot of gen aren't found in dog… but it exist! but not found now. So is not good to cross the information's of dog genetics and mice genetics… a example: the most black dog are Ky and not aa! So the black dogs are dominant black and not recessive black.

I have a lot of examples…but jack say correctly it's very heavy to discuss in other language about Genetics.

Back to Hereford… Hereford is a own gen. Allele is wn/wn…it means white nose….
so why it have Hereford with small or incorrectly Forms? Because you have a lot of other alleles how works co-dominant or intermediary white the wn/wn… for example te/te… it means light head (this gen make blezzed or head points/lines)

So the herefordbreeder must look that he isolate the wn/wn from the other gens… that is not so easy..because when you take a normal self mouse the have a lot of modification (TE/te. or Ss or..) so you must breed very carefully …. I think that is also the declared why the typ is so small and little. Because is not good for the Hereford to make a lot of Lines out cross…

I hope you understand what I want to tell you

regards tipex
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J
Thanks, Silvia. That makes sense.

Also, I've found this page, which contends (as do you and other hereford breeders) that hereford is not a part of the "s-series" of mouse mutations at all:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/tbde3n3e5e8xxa3c/

Likening mouse genetics to dog genetics can be helpful, but only up to a point, as we've seen! :p
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nuedaimice
Right, as I said it may be the same. There is no way to say for sure. I still feel, though, judging by many, many photos I've seen where an Irish Spotted mouse was bred to resemble a hereford, that its very possible to breed a hereford to standard using those genes.

As anyone knows, breeding to standard is not ALWAYS using the same genes. For example, while its true that Silver is genetically aa/dd/pp, we all know that you can get a less mealy coat by breeding aa/pp to resemble Silver.

If breeding s^i/s^i gets you a hereford looking mouse with better type, then why not do it? And how will anyone ever know if it would be better or worse if no one ever tries it or everyone tells them not to because its the wrong gene?

If no one ever tried anything different or tried to breed a better mouse to meet the standard using the different genes from those everyone else used, then all of our cream mice would still be Ay based.
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T
nuedaimice: Look you have only tow Pigments the Phäomelanin and the Eumelanin... all colors that you see is only from this tow Pigments... or when this tow color are off.. it make white.... So the gen it give only the information which pigment it produce and how portion..... The Nomenclature an attempt to organize it .... mostly you have a Protein in back from a Nomenclature...

so i will make a example.... Blue... the Nomenclature is dd for blue...(in mice and dogs) but correctly it is the Myo5a protein..so you must correctly read...Myo5a/Myo5a... but that is not breeding frendly i think... dd it is easyer... but when you see a blue dog... mostly it is not a Myo5/Myo5a ... but it look same like a mice how is blue...

a lot of dogs have Mlph/Mlph so you see the same color it showing...but it is a different information/mutation/synthes for show this colors...

Or other example...the Ay and ee .... it make the same color...but Ay have healty problems..(because the synthese way it is difference to ee)

Interesting to see that a lot of breeder have only interesting of the colors...but no interesting what is the process .... that's all chemistry....Enzymes that are defective also have impacts on other chemical processes ..Dopamin...it have a lot of other works ...not only for the Pigments... I know that is a high level...and it is very heavy to explain in a other language...it hope you will understand what i will explain:)

regards Tipex
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J
tipex said:
Interesting to see that a lot of breeder have only interesting of the colors...but no interesting what is the process ....
Click to expand...
I agree that it is interesting that a lot of breeders have interest in the colors themselves but don't bother to understand how they actually come about. To be fair, you don't need to know how pigment is formed on the molecular level to breed winning mice, but it does help. It's easy to draw parallels with dogs, and very helpful at times, but it doesn't always correlate directly. At least, I think that's what you mean...hehe. :p

I think the pheomelanins you're talking about are largely absent in US mice, whether tan, red, or argente. That's one reason I imported the Ay/A mice: so that more people could have access to the modifiers which make red fur red instead of yellow. One person is trying to improve the red on black tans by outcrossing to an agouti from the reds (who presumably has all the same pheomelanin modifiers), and then back-crossing, keeping only the tan babies from each pairing. It will be interesting to see the results and I will make her post pictures. :p
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T
Thanks Jack...you understand what i will say:) In a very nice english:)

I think the pheomelanins you're talking about are largely absent in US mice, whether tan, red, or argente
Click to expand...
. That is interesting... but it is not a problem of the Pheomelanins :) It is a problem that breeders don't make breeding:) They don't understand how to construct a Linie... there exist genes that are better or worse for the red colors are...

When you would to have a nice blue... and you breed the blue with black.....so you have very dark blue ... or with brown you have a mealy blue mouse... it is better to breed with colors that are compatible:)

Ay are so red because they are breeding with brown... But you can that make also with the ee mice...no problem... mice have a high reproduction rate...

But show me the pics...it would be interesting to see... and have you also cinnamon?

PS: The Tan it is not reaction with the coat color.. it is a other modification how make it red! exception is blue (dd) he makes mealy tan. ...You can make very firy red tan .... you see a good tan in a self, when they have a red ass.

tipex
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J
I know. Maybe I'm being too generous with American breeders. :p What I meant was that if you have a poor tan (at/at for example) and you breed it consistently with a good red (Ay/A), you will improve the red bellies significantly because the modifiers for red fur are already there.

It's a shame that so many people don't know (or don't care) about the proper way to make varieties look their best! Sometimes it is a matter of not having the resources and that's understandable, but all too often people do have the resources and they choose to ruin their mice by crossing varieties which should never be crossed. The damage done is much harder to reverse than it is to cause.

For example, this is a picture of a white-bellied chinchilla (genotype: Aw/aw cch/c U/u) who was crossed to a himalayan a few generations ago:


He is the closest thing to "pet-typed" that I have, and he has produced babies of vastly different quality due to his mixed-ancestry. If his great great grandmother (from a respected English chinchilla breeder) had never been bred to a US petstore mouse, he could have been a stellar example of chinchilla. As it is now, I am working on improving his descendants' type as well as solidifying a line of true-breeding mice who are Aw/Aw cch/cch Fz/Fz u/u. It will take me at least three or four more years to come close to this goal, yet it only took one night of mouse passion (and one bad decision from a breeder) to lead to this! Very frustrating!

Ok, I'm done preaching to the choir! :lol:
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W
Thank you Tipex for your posts! Very informative. :)
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R
Ohhhh I'm pretty sure I've just recieved a legitimate hereford mouse. It looks very different (even though the markings are in the same places) than my mice with 'hereford-like markings'. The stomach is the most noticeable difference, and the feet are very specifically marked as well . . .

Unfortunately for me, it's a fuzzy, :lol:
I do love fuzzies, but I wish I had a standard hereford.
I'll be able to post pictures on Monday when I can borrow my mom's camera.. :D
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S
I don't know any thing about Hereford genetics but I can tell you that they have a humble background,no fancy breeding program as such.They simply cropped up in a feeder breeder colony by chance,that breeder shared some photos with a mouse club member.That member liked them,took a few on and set about establishing them as a new variety.All the ones I have handled have been of decent size,not at all like the dutch.Over here red,black and chocolate are the most common colours.
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I
I picked up some herefords on Saturday, had previously tried with them last year and failed miserably. I googled hereford genetics and this thread popped up (I should always look here first!).

The ones I picked up are a black trio. I have produced a few random brokens recently some of which have hereford facemarkings, others with rectangular belly marings and some with stops on the tail or white feet. None have all the appropriate hereford markings on the same mouse.

I want to just confrim a few things the hereford gene is known as w/n w/n meaning its a simple recessive gene? Infact it may not really be 'a gene' but a bundle of genes and modifyers?
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W
Why were there posts from this thread removed? Anyone know? I specifically remember a few posts that were in this thread that are now gone.
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R
I hadn't noticed. I have no idea.
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J
I hadn't noticed either. Hmm...
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