[fuzzymom]

So my blue girls did have their litters and the colors are interesting. I looked at them all closely and if both parents are satin, then the babies are satin as well, correct? Some of them also appear to be long-haired (some hairs are much longer than normal) I will take better pictures when I find my camera. As far as color, 5 females appear to be black selfs. 3 females and 4 males appear to be fox (black on top, white on the bottom). So can anyone shed some light on the genetics of these mice? Since the mothers are blue, then all these babies carry the blue gene, correct? And since I didn't get any blue babies, then the male (himalayan) does not carry blue.

 

[Jack Garcia]

All babies will carry blue. If both parents are satin, all babies will be satin since satin is a recessive trait.

If no babies are blue, the father is at/a ch/c D/D (a black tan who has one copy of himalayan and one copy of albino).

If any of the babies have long hair, the parents are also Go/go (carriers of angora) and/or go/go (angora). Sometimes you can have mice who are very poor angoras not show it very much. It's a hard trait to keep consistent.

The "fox" you see is actually a very poor (common) tan. This is because you cannot have a chinchillated himalayan (chinchilla is needed for real fox). I wonder why somebody (or a petstore?) bred a himalayan to a tan mouse in the first place.

What are your goals with this litter? The colors and coats you describe seem all over the place.

 

[fuzzymom]

I have no real goals. I breed for feeders and sometimes for pets. This litter will be kept as future breeders. Colors and markings make it interesting. I didn't find them at a pet store as pets or get them from a breeder. They were in with feeder mice. I simply told the man at the store to find me some interesting colors in their feeder bins and he found these 3. So the buck carries one gene for himalayan (what will that mean for the babies as far as the himalayan gene) and one gene for albino. Since none of the babies are albino, is it safe to say the does (blues) do not carry albino. I'm trying to develop a list of all the genes they carry. I have to admit that I have no clue as far as mouse genetics and color/marking varieties. I'm still learning. Thanks for replying.

 

[fuzzymom]

I will include pictures of the parents as well as the litter. I apologize for the poor quality of some of the pictures as I have lost my camera and had to use my cell phone.

Buck

One of the does

Same doe

The other doe

Litter

One of the females

Another baby

More recent pic of a baby

 

[Jack Garcia]

You're very welcome!

The buck is a himalayan satin angora.

The first female is blue satin angora.

The second I can't quite tell from the picture. She looks like a blue satin standard, but my hunch is that she's sister to the other blue and carries angora or is a very poor angora herself.

You might not realize it, but you do have goals: to breed feeders as healthy and happy (presumably) as possible. That's not a bad goal in and of itself.

If you were breeding for pets or show, I'd recommend trying to stay with one or two varieties and working from there.

 

[fuzzymom]

I believe the second female is standard. I definitely have goals for breeding healthy happy mice/rats but as far as colors I have no real goals until I know what they carry. You said the buck carries only one gene of himalayan and one gene of albino. How do you know he carries albino if none of the offspring were albino? And if he only carries one gene of himalayan is it a dominant gene or co-dominant gene? I know ball python genetics really well. Color and pattern morphs are either dominant, co-dominant, and recessive. I'm still learning how certain genes present themselves and how they are transferred to offspring. So the buck will display himalayan with only one gene. What happens if he has two, or is that even possible? (ball python genetics deals with two alleles with each gene. If they display the color/pattern mutation with just one allele it is either dominant or co-dominant. If it is co-dominant, it has a super form, which displays differently when both alleles are present.)

 

[julieszoo]

2 copies of the c(h) gene will give siamese

 

[Jack Garcia]

Himalayan is a heterozygous variety.

 

[fuzzymom]

So the offspring have a 50% chance of inheriting that gene?

 

[Jack Garcia]

From their father they will inherit either himalayan or albino, but not both.

Depending on what is present at other loci (such as recessive yellow or brindle), himalayan and albino can look identical so with petstore-derived mice you won't necessarily know for sure than an all-white mouse isn't himalayan.

It's good that you're familiar with ball python genetics but mouse color and coat genetics are some of the most complicated of any small animal. There are basically exceptions to everything.

 

[fuzzymom]

How do you know he carries albino though. Isn't albino recessive?

 

[Jack Garcia]

He doesn't carry albino. He displays it. Albino is one part of himalayan. The himalayan allele when homozygous doesn't make himalayan--it makes siamese (as Julie said).

"ch" is himalayan, which when homozygous makes siamese and when heterozygous with albino makes himalayan
"c" is albino, which when homozygous makes albino and when heterozygous with himalayan makes himalayan

All of this is assuming a black background with no other non-wild-type alleles present.

Your mouse is ch/c.

 

[fuzzymom]

*brain leaks out of ear* :lol: Haha, ok. I'm confused. Mouse genetics are no where close to reptile genetics at all! Thanks for helping me with this though. So the babies have inherited either an albino gene (or will they all have inherited it?) or the himalayan gene. They inherit blue from their moms but display black because blue is recessive. They will all be satin since all parents are satin, and some may be angora while others will not but even if they don't display it, they will carry it.

Now you said their "fox" markings are just poor quality tan markings. I have seen the tan on the internet. How does that color/marking gene work and transfer?

 

[Jack Garcia]

Yeah, the C- and the A- loci in mice are the most complicated, with many alleles on each that can interact (and counteract) with each other plus those in other places, all of which have varying degrees of dominance to each other.

Your babies each have one copy of himalayan (ch) or albino (c) from the father. They cannot have both, or they would be himalayan (ch/c) or albino (c/c). Also, you can only inherit one allele from each parent (so the daddy had to give one or the other).

They each also carry blue (D/d) from the mothers.

The tan ones are also at/a (heterozygous for black self). The selfs are a/a (homozygous black selfs).

Tan (at) is dominant to black but incompletely dominant to agouti. It is epistatic to himalayan (and albino) and doesn't show up, which is why you didn't know you were dealing with tan in the father.

To have a "real" fox mouse, you need the chinchilla allele. This is on the C-locus along with himalayan, albino, beige, and a few other lesser common alleles. It is denoted cch (note: not ch, people get these confused but they're separate).

Since your baby mice all have either ch or c from their father, they can't possibly have cch from their mothers because then they wouldn't be black or black tans as they are. On top of this, chinchilla is a very uncommon color in the US outside of the show ring. I've never known anyone in the US have a "true" fox mouse from petstore-derived animals. They're all poor tans.

You're dealing with very poor representations of every color you're working with, so if you breed from them in the future you'll likely get lots of babies who you just aren't sure what they are. You're combining at least black tan, black, blue, himalayan, albino, satin, and angora. Each of these can have a slight (or major) effect on the others. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that there are more common recessives (such as white spotting, chocolate, or recessive yellow) hiding in there, too. You wouldn't be the first person dealing with such a mess.

Have you read finnmouse? It's pretty much the most respected mouse genetics site out there and is a good read. I'm sure a Google search will turn it up.

 

[fuzzymom]

That's what I get for getting breeders from the feeding bin. :mrgreen: I would love to get my hands on some real quality mice but I don't know of any mouse breeders in my area and all you guys seem to be across the Atlantic. So the black selfs are homozygous while the tans are heterozygous. Slowly I'm understanding. Ok, so the buck is homozygous for albino or just heterozygous. You said he can either pass along the himalayan or the albino, so that would mean the albino is heterozygous....right? If tan is dominant over black, then how are homozygous individuals all black?

I will check out the site and see if I can learn about this so I don't drive you guys crazy with all my genetics questions.

 

[Jack Garcia]

The buck is at/a ch/c D/D go/go sa/sa. He could also carry other things, but you wouldn't necessarily know.

So the black selfs are homozygous while the tans are heterozygous.

Yep. The selfs are a/a. The tans are at/a. If bred together, they could produce babies who are at/at but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference by looking at them. In other words, at/at and at/a look the same (black tans).

Ok, so the buck is homozygous for albino or just heterozygous. You said he can either pass along the himalayan or the albino, so that would mean the albino is heterozygous....right?

The buck is heterozygous for albino AND himalayan, which makes himalayan (ch/c).

If tan is dominant over black, then how are homozygous individuals all black?

Because black-and-tan is technically its own color, at. You're dealing with at (black and tan) and a (black).

I'm in Kentucky, which isn't too far from Virginia. If you can ever make it to Pennsylvania, there's a Rodentfest every May and October. Some of us travel from Georgia, Tennesse, and other places so may stop through VA. I know the people I usually go with sometimes stop in DC at least.

I'm also involved with the ECMA and know we have a few members in Virginia. Verminarium, I think, is one. We are planning to have a Southern show sometime in the next couple years (the President and I are both in the South, but our members are everywhere). Basic membership is always free so maybe you could find other breeders through there...I posted a link in the "links" section.

 

[fuzzymom]

Thanks. I took pictures of all the breeders I have right now. All are from feeder bins so their genetics are a complete mystery until they start popping out babies. I got a better picture of the blue satin standard female. Well as best as I could get with my phone. What is the D/D? I also got better pictures of the current litter, especially the belly. Thank you so much for helping me with this. Genetics fascinate me.

 

[Jack Garcia]

You're very welcome!

D/D means non-dilute, ie not blue. d/d is blue (aka dilute). It is a recessive.

 

[Cait]

D means there's no blue dilution, d means blue dilution. So therefore D/D means the mouse does not carry blue at all. There are 5 main loci - A, B, C, D and P. I have a simplified genetics bit on my website, would you like the link?

 

[fuzzymom]

Oh ok. :mrgreen: So the does have which genes? One has d/d go/go sa/sa, but they do not have himalayan (ch) or albino (c), right? (so I think part of the himalayan genetics just clicked. If he carries himalayan but not albino, he won't display himalayan, but if he carries albino, it displays. If he is homozygous for albino, it cancels out the himalayan even though he carries it, and it won't display, but he can still pass it on. ??? Maybe???)

This is the standard female. She is satin but she is not long-haired (go/go) Not sure if she carries it though. I have not checked all the babies.

I'd love the link.