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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been trying to get a grasp on how the genetics relate, and I think I've got it so far. If I'm wrong in any of this, please correct me, and if I'm right, let me know so I don't keep guessing!

A fox is a tan mouse that has the chinchilla gene, right? If you breed a fox to a self without the chin gene, you'll get either all tans if the fox is homozygous for tan, or roughly half tan, half self if the fox is heterozygous. In that case, are the selfs that came from a fox and a self carrying the chin gene?

If you breed two selfs that carry the chin gene, will you get siamese type mice? If you breed a fox to a siamese, will all the pups be foxes if the fox is homozygous for tan? Are all first generation offspring of a tan and a siamese heterozygous for tan?

That's all the questions I have so far. Please let me know how I'm doing on my grasp of genetics. At this point I'm fondly wishing for pea plants!
 

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a fox coms wen a ressesiv c-locus gen kom in combination with the tan gen. this meens that the maus don't nesseserely have to have the chinchilla gen. it can have to gens for beige or one for ekstrime delution and one for beige, and still be fox.

but yes. if you breed a fox to a self, you will get 100% tan if the fox is ****, and 50% tan and 50% self if it's hetro.

alle mice ind the letter will cerry a ressersiv c-locus gen. but if you don't know withs c-locus gens ther are ind the fox, you have no klu about withs ons the mice cerrys efter breeding to a self, if the self is nok a c-locus vereraty, like chinchilla black,beige, colourpoint, siamese, himalayan or PEW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
A couple more questions I just thought of, driving home: Can a tan carry the chin gene, but not express it? So you can breed two tans and unexpectedly get a fox? If you breed a heteroygous fox to a self carrying the chin gene, then the possibilities are self w/chin, tan w/ chin, fox, and siamese?

Is there anything else I'm missing with the genetics that I should be getting?
 

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Can a tan carry the chin gene but not express it?
The chinchilla gene is c(ch) and yes a mouse can carry it.

So you can breed two tans and get a fox?
If they both carry c(ch) then yes, remember that a mouse needs 2 genes one from each parent to express that gene visually. Most genes behave like this (recessive) however there are Dominant genes which only need one copy inherited from one parent for the colour to show.

If you breed a heteroygous fox to a self carrying the chin gene, then the possibilities are self w/chin, tan w/ chin, fox, and siamese?
If you bred a hetrozygous fox (c(ch) c(ch)) to a self carrying the c(ch) gene then the possiblities are:
50% fox (cch/cch) and 50% cch carriers.
If your mouse who carried the c(ch) gene also carried c(h) then you have a possibility of Burmese (cch/ch) in the litter. A siamese has two c(h) genes.

Just a tip, which made genetics sooooo much easier for me to understand. Educate yourself with which genes are Dominant (Agouti, etc) and which are Recessive (black, chocolate, C Locus genes, blue, etc) then remember that Dominant genes only need one copy to express themselves and Recessive need two, one from each parent.
Hope I haven't confused you. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Not confused. I'm actually fairly familiar with genes... horse genes. I breed Paint (Piebald/Skewbald in UK) horses, and the Paint gene is dominant in horses. That's why I was surprised to learn it was recessive in mice. Agouti/selfs in mice is a bit like the difference between a black and bay in horses. But for my purpose, I'm using about three color genes in horses when I breed. Fox mice (that I really like the color of) are a little more complicated here!
 

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Mice have over 25 gens and over a dussen other modifire and patten gens.

the most of the genes in mice are of 100% penetrand. were in horses a lot of gens are of 1/3 penetans or les. :?

the tan gen are a paten gen siting on the locus for agouti/non-agouti. therfor its like semi dominat ind a way.

normelig ven a pet is Aa^t you wood never se the ressesiv gens effekt on the fenotype... but sins a^t is an patten gen, it show in the fenotype all thou :p

on the c-locus we have thte following gens.

C = no effekt on the fenotype
c^i = ekstrime chinchilla gen
c^ch = chinchilla gen
c^e = ekstrime delution gen
c^m = Chinchilla Mottled
c^h = himalayan gen
c = albino/Ping eyed white gen

any combinaton betwine c^i and c gives fox when the mice also is hetro or **** for tan patten...

it will meens that all the following kombinations gives fox:

_a^t c^ic^i
_a^t c^ic^ch
_a^t c^ic^e
_a^t c^ic^m
_a^t c^ic^h
_a^t c^ic
_a^t c^chc^ch
_a^t c^chc^e
_a^t c^chc^m
_a^t c^chc^h
_a^t c^chc
_a^t c^ec^e
_a^t c^ec^m
_a^t c^ec^h
_a^t c^ec
_a^t c^mc^m
_a^t c^mc^h
_a^t c^mc
_a^t c^hc^h
_a^t c^hc
_a^t cc (this will be a PEW, so you won't se the fox on it)
a^t_ c^ic^i
a^t_ c^ic^ch
a^t_ c^ic^e
a^t_ c^ic^m
a^t_ c^ic^h
a^t_ c^ic
a^t_ c^chc^ch
a^t_ c^chc^e
a^t_ c^chc^m
a^t_ c^chc^h
a^t_ c^chc
a^t_ c^ec^e
a^t_ c^ec^m
a^t_ c^ec^h
a^t_ c^ec
a^t_ c^mc^m
a^t_ c^mc^h
a^t_ c^mc
a^t_ c^hc^h
a^t_ c^hc
a^t_ cc (this will be a PEW, so you won't se the fox on it)

therfor fox is NOT = tan + chinchilla gens
 

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Fox is usually tan + chinchilla. Not always. But usually.

Mouse color genetics are more complicated than any other animal raised in captivity because we have hundreds of possible combinations/varieties and mice breed so fast.

In addition to the varieties contraria listed, Aw can also give "fox" mice, although they're just called chinchilla (Aw/* cch/cch) in the standards. In this way you can get tan bellies without the tan gene at all. My chinchillas are this kind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Okay, I understand that. Another question, though: What is the difference between a Siamese and a himalayan? All I know is that in cats, Siamese is short furred, and himalayan long furred. So what is it for mice?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Is there a difference in the color? Can you tell by looking at them, or do you have to breed to find out?
 

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Strictly speaking, Himalayan should be pure white with brown points and no shading, and Siamese should be creamy beige with dark brown points that shade gradually into the body colour. However, you can have pale siamese that look like himis and vice-versa.

Sarah xxx
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have a siamese that is cream, and fades to a darker brown, but on her back is a slightly lighter patch of cream. It's not white like a broken marked, but still cream colored. Is that usual, or a fault, or what?
 

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It is usual, but it is a fault too... its due to molting of the fur. Siams and Himi's can be difficult to breed for show because of this.

If you want to find out whether your 'siamese' is actually a siamese (ch/ch) then breed it to a PEW (c/c) and all the babies will be himilayan (ch/c), if you get himilayan and PEW offspring then it means that what you thought was a siam is actually only a himi. =o)

W xx
 

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Himalayans are white bodied and Siamese are darker bodied. Himalayans do not have shading, as per the standards; Siamese do:

Here are some US standards:

http://www.afrma.org/miceaocp.htm
http://www.eastcoastmice.org/pointed.htm

This is assuming that you are working with show mice. Pet mice who carry different genes and have unknown background are often "intermediate" in appearance (like a mutt, if you were talking about dogs).
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
What about this combination. I have a merle buck who I think is a fox. What would breeding my merle (fox?) to an agouti carrying a broken gene produce? She doesn't have the chin gene, and she's heterozygous for agouti. I think... correct me if I'm wrong... I'll get half agouti, and half tans??? Because a tan is basically a self with the tan gene? Possibly, if he's heterozygous for tan, I could get selfs too? And they'd all carry the chin gene, assuming that's what he has? Am I reading this right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
And mutts are the best animals, not matter what they are: dog, cat, mice, horse! I have 3 dogs, 3 cats, lots of mice, and 1 horse, all of indeterminate breeding. I'm even a mutt myself!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
How easy is it to tell the difference between tans and foxes? Do you get some foxes that have creamy bellies? Do you get tans with really yellowy bellies? How do you know for sure what you have? What kind of test breeding would be good for that?
 
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