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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, does anyone know if the black color shows before the other colors because out of my litter, I have one that has black broken pigment and the rest haven't gotten their pigment yet. I am starting to worry that Dexter isn't this litter's father because, well, there was an albino male in with the females by accident when I got Dakota. :? Does anyone have an image of a gold's pigment on day 5? And my brother wants to now what is the rarest color of mouse.
 

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Black shows before a lot of other pigments, yes. Especially pink eyed varieties.
 

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I don't know..."gold" fur (which doesn't have a standard as far as I'm aware--I think you mean poor red) would show through later, especially if the mouse is pink eyed.

There are no "rare" colors of mice. Some are more common in some areas of the world and some aren't. The pearl, though, is pretty uncommon in both the US and the UK (the two main mouse fancying areas).
 

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Eye color can be seen as soon as the meeces are born, as the skin is translucent; for fur lighter colors are usually impossible to judge unless you know the genetics of the doe and buck. White, yellow, champagne, beige; any light color won't be apparent until about 6 or 7 days. The exception might be for satin which you may see on day 5.

BTW, gold is what we call yellow satin here in the US. Yellow is not a poor red, but a color of it's own, related to but not inferior to red.
 

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mousetress, that's not exactly right. :p Both are caused by e/e and/or Avy/* in the US. They're the same color caused by the same genes, just different extremes. The AFRMA actually has them standardized as fawn, gold, orange, and red, depending on the level of color.
 

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We (on PetRodents) always used ivory for satin PEW's and gold for satin yellows. The American standards are newer and not the same as the English and European standards. In some parts of Europe yellow is known as straw in a light version. Folks are always jockeying to get new shades standardized, which would make things more complicated for judges. Perhaps it's an attempt to gain recognition for one's own favorite colors or shades. It's weird because standards for showing need to be stable for the colors represented, yet it's interesting to see how things have shifted. Even Finnmouse lists new shades that weren't included 10 years ago. Sand, straw, stone, and on and on. I favor color names that are descriptive of what is seen, and yellow and red are too different to both be called red. Gold is a good name for satinized yellow because it is shiny.

Now there's a rewrite of Finnmouse's section on blue mousies (a favorite of mine), and again there's an example of mousies who look blue who are actually leaden, who may look more like proper blue that actual blues. I may have to do some experimental pairings to find out. Color genetics are expanding and exploding, and I'm sure there will be a lot more surprises in the future.(And moustress- no E in the middle- slinks off to scrutinize her blue meeces to see if she has true blue or not.)

ps mild apologies for overuse of quite marks
 

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You only have leaden (as opposed to blue) if you got them from Karen in California. Nobody else in the US has leaden.

What I was getting at with the red/yellow mark is genotype. They're identical.
 

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True, the generalized genotype is the same. I suspect, however, if detailed gene charts could be easily made, there would be a difference in the actual genetic fingerprint, else there would be no difference in color. The genotypes used for the purposes of designating the qualities of coats in fancy mice are very generalized. I'm sure you know there are a lot of subsets of genes that act on color and coat that are generally not used in reference to the rodents kept by hobbyists.

As far as my blue meeces are concerned you are probably right, they most likely aren't leaden because they possess every characteristic, including the flaws, typical of tru blue meeces. I'm puzzled by a diluted blue in one of my litters; it's probably a c^h in the mix; I shall have to post a photo. I got mousies from Karen, but not blues.
 

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That's not true, either. Environment (specifically neonatal environment) affects color distribution, density and pigmentation as well, in ways we don't fully understand. The genes are still 100% identical.

This is most easily seen in some strains of pied laboratory mice who are genetic clones of one another (i.e. 100% genetically identical on every count except for sex) and all look slightly different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, I'm not good with genes. I'm basing the genes from you guys until I am good at it, so, yeah.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I believe that they all have black eyes and some are getting a little pigment. I held the runt and a few others today that showed little signs of change. They are great, though the runt is half the size of the others, maybe smaller. He/she seems like he/she was just born, though he has color. Has anyone noticed how mouse babies are warmer than mouse adults. Maybe thats just cause their skin is bare, but it felt like a sauna in the nest, even though its pretty cold outside of the cage.
 

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100% identical? You're sure of that? I don't think Charles Darwin would agree with you, Jack. Scientific reasoning denies the possibility of that claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
How did we get to Charles Darwin? All I wanted to know was what colors may pop up! And guess what. I may have to start my project over because I checked gender of four of the seven and, unfortunately all that I checked gender was male.
 

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Haha! Put it at 99.9999% then, in other words as closely identical as scientifically possible. They have to be for the validity of experiments to be accepted, what with the control group and all. When inbred for hundreds of generations, the identical qualities at every locus is the result. Ask the Jax Laboratories (no relation) or any other evolutionary biologist familiar with the modern strains of animal models available to science. In many of the strains of mice they have on offer, the individuals are genetically identical, i.e. their genes are exactly the same.

This is just a roundabout way to support the assertion that two mice who are a/a e/e (for example) can have very different appearances while having the same genes at play.

Charles Darwin, more specifically his ideas, are intimately at play in any animal breeding program, by the way.
 

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Of the tens of thousands of genes present in the mouse genome(or any other animal genome), one tiny difference can make a big difference in appearance, or physical function or behavior. When one selects individuals for breeding based on a fixed set of criteria, one initiates the process of genetic change just as pressures in the environment initiate natural selection. Lab mice are inbred in an attempt to retain 100% of an identity needed for some experiment or research.

In other words, lab mice are forced to retain that identity whereas fancy mousies are forced to change their identity when selected for specific characteristics in order to achieve the desired end of darker fur or longer fur or whatever.

Sidebar on the subject of lab mice: I'd bet my silk pajama that lines of identical lab mice eventually experience genetic change due to bombardment by random cosmic rays or oxidation or other happenstance, and then have to be re-engineered from saved fertilized eggs.
 

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Wait a minute....hmmm; no, it's not that. I don't need to prove I'm right, and I did put my full screed rant into my BMF thread.

(I am, though.)
 
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