[evansrabbitranch]

I would love some help identifying the color names of these three. All are satins.

98% sure this one has black eyes

Not completely sure but I think this one has pink eyes

This one deffinitely has black eyes.

Thanks to all!

 

[Jack Garcia]

They look like very poor blues or lilacs.

 

[evansrabbitranch]

Even the one in the middle? The one in the middle is very coppery with a slight grey tinge to it. The other two are very brownish grey. Nothing like their father who I am fairly sure is a blue tan with poor quality belly color. I'll get new photos in a few days and post them here. Will try to take them during the day too so I can get natural light instead of poor background light and a flash.

 

[evansrabbitranch]

Looked it up and I guess you're right Two poor blues and a lilac. Would you say the lilac is poor color quality? How can I improve my blues? With the way the bottom one's face stays dark no matter which way it turns I was hoping burmese but that was a long shot ha ha!

 

[Rhasputin]

If the coppery one has pink eyes, I'd say sooty RY.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Two poor blues and a lilac. Would you say the lilac is poor color quality? How can I improve my blues? With the way the bottom one's face stays dark no matter which way it turns I was hoping burmese but that was a long shot ha ha!

Yes, they're poorly-bred in terms of both color and type. The best way to improve them would be to get show mice and cross them to improve condition and type, and then after a couple years begin to work on color. But if you don't want to do that (and from your other posts I suspect you won't), to improve the color alone you'd still probably need some deep blue show mice to help take away the mealiness and too-pale fur. Both blues and lilacs suffer from mealiness, but lilacs can afford to be a bit lighter, whereas blues can't. If you decide to breed only pet store mice, you should only breed blue to blue and lilac to lilac if you want to make improvements. The same goes for almost all varieties, actually: only breed like to like in most cases.

A lot of people don't realize how dark blues are supposed to be (or are capable of being), because they've never seen good blues. For whatever reason, it's not a particularly popular variety in the USA. Blues are supposed to look like this: http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/blue.html

BTW, if it turns out any of them have red eyes, they're not blue or lilac.

 

[jessierose2006]

Breeding black to your blues for a few generation would darken the blues but you dont want to keep any of the blacks from those Black x Blue breedings as it messes up the black.

I know in rabbits you could breed chocolate to lilac and lilac to lilac. you would possibly need to breed 2 lilacs and pick the best coloring until you pop good colored pups.

*If i am wrong please feel free to correct me as i am using rabbit genetics on the basic colors.* (darkening/ lightening)

 

[The Boggit keeper]

They're gorgeous!

 

[gothling]

the middle one looks like it's made of gold! they are so pretty!

 

[Jack Garcia]

I know in rabbits you could breed chocolate to lilac and lilac to lilac. you would possibly need to breed 2 lilacs and pick the best coloring until you pop good colored pups.

Lilac in rabbits is caused by different genes, similar to dove in mice. I don't know why you'd breed that to chocolate.

 

[Stina]

Yes, they're poorly-bred in terms of both color and type. The best way to improve them would be to get show mice and cross them to improve condition and type, and then after a couple years begin to work on color. But if you don't want to do that (and from your other posts I suspect you won't), to improve the color alone you'd still probably need some deep blue show mice to help take away the mealiness and too-pale fur. Both blues and lilacs suffer from mealiness, but lilacs can afford to be a bit lighter, whereas blues can't. If you decide to breed only pet store mice, you should only breed blue to blue and lilac to lilac if you want to make improvements. The same goes for almost all varieties, actually: only breed like to like in most cases.

Jack....is it REALLY necessary to repeatedly tell people who can't/won't get show mice that they need to get show mice??.....I'm pretty sure they can figure out what you think after the first 80 times you say it. I really don't think its necessary to be so insistent when you know they aren't going to do it. Not everyone wants what you want or is able to acheive what they/you want for their mice

 

[jessierose2006]

@ Jack-

We bred lilac to chocolate in the beginning as it was an oddball and i needed more lilac to chocolate ruins the lilac but keeps the chocolate pure. for a few generations.

And i agree with Stina we get the point about show mice I think ive been told at least 10 times so far :lol:

 

[Jack Garcia]

Your point is well taken, but it is unfortunately necessary to answer honestly because of the way the questions are being asked. If you're asked how to make improvements on any given standard variety ("How can I improve my blues?" was the question), you really can't do that with pet store mice alone, except in the most superficial of ways over an inordinately long period of time. I've done it myself so I'm giving the best advice instead of fibbing to people telling them they can make any significant improvements when they've chosen to use pet store mice alone. I know it's not the most popular answer, so I'll refrain from using it except where the questions warrant.

 

[evansrabbitranch]

Jack: Its not so much that I am unwilling to use show mice as
I am not really in a position to get any, as well as I
would feel bad about using someone else's hard work for my
lines as it would pretty much ruin their work. Is this
something I just need to get over? Also it turns out the
lighter one does have pink eyes, so what does that mean?
Poor RY?

The Boggit Keeper: Thank you

Gothling: Yes that one has a dull blueish-coppery tone to it and pink eyes.
I have no idea what color that makes it lol.

Jack: Should I really have to say "With what I have" every time I write
a question? After a while I kinda hope people know I have to
work with what I have. Telling me to buy show mice when I
can't and you know I can't is counter productive and not what
I asked for. Though I do know you mean well.

I get from all of this to breed my blues to blues or blacks, but
when I breed blue to black do not keep the blacks from the
breedings. Am I right? I can do that, I have 2 blacks to choose from
to work on the blues. I will think hard on it. Thank you for the
advice. With the new info on the odd one, any ideas on his color?

Many Many thanks to all!

 

[Stina]

Jack...once you've said it a couple times....the point is made it doesn't need to be repeated...repeatedly... If they're not asking how they can get show mice to improve their lines with someone else's line....then they're probably asking how they can improve on what they have. EVERY single reply you make does not have to say "get show mice" in one way or another multiple times per reply. If you really need to something say "besides getting show mice from someone else" at the start of a post...then say that...but there is no reason, after someone has already told you repeatedly that they can't or won't get show mice, for you to repeatedly basically say "you need show mice for 'a'...but if you can't do that then...then you still need show mice for 'b'...and if you decide not use show mice then maybe you can try "c" but your animals are going to suck." It's inconsiderate, annoying, and everyone already knows what you think

Also...while technically it has taken a long time to get where mice are today...part of that is because the original fanciers did not set out with the same goals that most aim for today. I highly doubt the "perfect mouse" of over 50 years ago was identical to what would be considered the "perfect mouse" of today (just like most dog breeds look very different today from how they were originally developed due to changing goals). Just a thought.

 

[evansrabbitranch]

I think I will just bred the odd mouse to a pew and see what happens then cull it. Especially if I can find a satin PEW. That would work out for me I think. Especially since no one has a clue what color he is :lol:

 

[Jack Garcia]

I'm not disagreeing with you, Stina. You have great points and know me better than anyone currently on this forum! I'm saying that when questions are asked as to the validity of pairings, how to improve certain varieties, and so on, I have to give honest answers, even if they're not popular or not "the right thing to say." If I didn't say that you needed nicer foundation animals to improve blue mice, then I know others would say the exact same thing--and I wish they would since they seem to have more finesse than I do! I know I can come across as a grumpy old meanie online and I'm trying not to!

Jack: Should I really have to say "With what I have" every time I write a question? After a while I kinda hope people know I have to work with what I have. Telling me to buy show mice when I can't and you know I can't is counter productive and not what I asked for. Though I do know you mean well.

I get from all of this to breed my blues to blues or blacks, but when I breed blue to black do not keep the blacks from the breedings. Am I right? I can do that, I have 2 blacks to choose from to work on the blues. I will think hard on it. Thank you for the advice. With the new info on the odd one, any ideas on his color?

You're very welcome!

Nah, I wouldn't preface every question with "with what I have." You're correct that you can breed blues to blacks, and discard the blacks. Then breed the resultant siblings together and keep only the blue babies. From there, keep the most consistent, dark, clear (not mealy) blues and never breed a blue mouse to anything but a blue mouse, ever. It would help if you used extreme black or show blacks (a/a) for the original outcross but since you aren't going to do that, you may have to travel to a lot of pet stores to find the darkest black. Keep an eye out for pink toes and tail tips. Blues actually have more pigment than blacks (weird to think about, huh?), but it's arranged differently in the hairs themselves, so pink toes on a blue are just as noticeable as on blacks even though blues appear lighter to us. Pet store mice often have entire pink feet, though, in which case you'd need to pick the ones with the least-pink feet and go from there.

This way of breeding will help darken the blues only if the blacks are sufficiently dark enough themselves. If the blacks are poor blacks and/or have pink toes and tails, I would probably skip this step all together and just use the blues you have now because the blacks could be carrying all sorts of things which are ruinous to blue, like recessive yellow or C-locus dilutes. Unless the blacks are good in their own right, I wouldn't risk using them, personally. It's ok to go with just the blues, if that's what you need to do.

Matt is the first breeder of blues of which I can think at the moment, so here's a gallery to his blues: http://madhousemousery.fancymicebreeder ... ab=gallery

Good luck and keep us updated!

 

[Stina]

I'm not disagreeing with you, Stina. You have great points and know me better than anyone currently on this forum! I'm saying that when questions are asked as to the validity of pairings, how to improve certain varieties, and so on, I have to give honest answers, even if they're not popular or not "the right thing to say." If I didn't say that you needed nicer foundation animals to improve blue mice, then I know others would say the exact same thing--and I wish they would since they seem to have more finesse than I do! I know I can come across as a grumpy old meanie online and I'm trying not to!

I'm not saying not to say it....I'm just saying you don't need to say it again and again and again and again and again to the same person you've already said it to over and over and over and over...lol
:loveyou

 

[Jack Garcia]

Oh, ok. I think I lose track of who I'm talking to.

I love you more! :love1

 

[evansrabbitranch]

Thanks guys I will keep blues to blues unless I find an outstanding (for a petshop) black or can get a good black from a feeder breeder or something near me. Thank you for the link to the amazing gallery. I have an even better idea of what I am working for now. Perhaps one day I will get show stock but for now, well we all know :lol: Its ok Jack, I understand how easy it is to forget stuff like that. We're in my book.