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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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These are two young, marked yellow (A^vy) bucks of about 3 months old. I started this line a little over a year ago by crossing a couple of my fawn and red mousies to a couple of marked beige/brown/black transgenic mice. I took four generations for the first individuals with distinct patches of different hues to appear. I'm working on getting a deeper shade, closer to red, so there will be better contrast in the patches of color.

Any thoughts or observations are welcome. I have pretty well concluded that the origin of the genes are of the mosaic or chimeric nature. Whatever the gene(s) consists of, they appear to work impartially on all the typical color related loci. Apparently the black/brown markings have been used extensively to create a visual summary of the effects of whatever quality is being investigated. This line does have a propensity to seizure disorders that I'd like to breed out, if possible.
 

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They're lovely. Sounds like you're making some great progress on the project. They also look to be Satin? Or is it just the photos?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ooh, my bad! I should have been more descriptive. Yes, Mari, they are satin. All the tri/yellow crosses are satin so far. I chose to do that because it would be easier to see the beginnings of patches of different hues, as satin deepens colors, as I'm sure you know. I'm setting a new goal to develop a true red hue so I can get yet more contrast. Some of my fawn mice have a nice deep hue. Here's an example this is Napoleon, who is about four months old in this pic, and about a year old now. I have a ways to go, but I always think long range.



I've heard just recently that the satin mice they have in Europe are from a different source than the ones we generally see here in the US. I found out just last year that US satins came from mice that were exposed to radiation in experiments back several decades ago, and that is why some satins carry harmful recessives. I know I had a lot of trouble developing a healthy line of satins. Now I'm curious, though, as to how the two different kinds of satins relate in terms of breeding.

Anyway, thanks for the kudos.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The transgenic element acts in concert with at least two types of genes. The first group it interacts with (these are the one group of genes that is necessary for the tri factor to be expressed at all) are the recessive 'c' locus dilutions such as c^ch, c^h and c^e. In addition, some type of marking pattern is required for the individual hues to separate into clear and distinct patches of individual color. While no standard has been set, the breeders who have worked with this gene seem to agree that blocks of solid hues is the goal with this type of mousie. Belted and dominant marking patterns work best for this quality to show. I am still not sure of which type of dilution factor works best; the siamese/himmy gene often gives a more diffuse blurry or streaky type of marking. Banded gives a nice pattern of large blocks of different hues. I suspect that the dominant marking pattern creates the irregular shaped patches of individual hues. With c^ch you get different shades of chichillated color and patches of full strength, i.e. chinchilla ticked patches and patches of full strength agouti, a type that is very attractive in satin. I have not yet had a satin transgenic blue agouti, but I bet it would be very pretty. I am in the process of trying for argent/agouti tris and expect results soon (then there comes the excitement of waiting for the little eekers to show their markings and colors...waiting waiting waiting). the siamese/himmy dilution is my least favorite combo thus far, maybe because it's the least predictable.

Here are some examples of these different types:

First, heres a family grouping; the doe is Truffle, the boldly marked one, a marked coffee tri, the buck is the longhaired marked beige.





This is one of their boys, Nibbles:



Here's one of my favorite all time boys and cuddlebuddies, Boytoy, a marked satin chinchilla tri:



And here's an example of a c^h based tri, Zazzle, a young doe:



I couldn't resist showing you this shot of Boytoy with his mate, Trinket, one of my favorite cute mousie couples.



And BTW, you have probably noticed that my mousies have pretty normal ears. I don't go to shows so there's no pressure on me to have big ears. As a matter of fact, I prefer smaller but very clean ears on my little loves. Nice strong tails are very nice, and I see that aspect as being a relative indicator of health and longevity. My breeding is based mostly on developing colors and markings, but I also breed for health and personality. (And I assume that you all know that these photos are thumbnails...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks to someone sneaking one or more of these out of a lab, we have them over here for breeders to use. I bet this type of mousie can be found at labs in England and Europe as well. One of the problems with transgenic mousies will always be the simple fact that their genetic make up will likely include the propensity for some sort of illness. I haven't quite figured out the component for that in my meeces...and I hope I can do that and breed out the bad without losing the bold markings.
 

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Do you know what a sable tricolour would look like (Ayat)? I know there aren't many people with dominant yellow in the US but wondering if anyone had tried it yet?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Actually, we do have the other dominant yellow A^vy. It is quite possible to breed out the brindling and get a line that produces only fawn and red. I don't know how I'd hae bred the lovely bright orange mousies if I had to work aroung the lethal yellow type gene. As far as sable and tricolor, I haven't the foggiest idea what5it would look like. It probably wouldn't turn into crazy swirls (that I have referred to as 'paisley' for lack of a better word) that one gets so frequently when mixing c^h with the tri genes. On an unmarked sable (is there any other kind of sable?) you'd probably just get a diluted sable. If one or both carried markings, you might get blocks of different hue. The dilution on the recessive 'c' locus is necessary. I found out that you can get tri foxesj very easily, and I'm working to avoid that. I've also produced a mouse that is solidly variegated from head to teo including the belly, and that was a cool thing to see. I still haven't a clue what's going on with my brindle tri crosses. I have four or five meeces that show patches of diluted brindling and patches of full color brindling, along with what look a lot like merle and a few with markings that I just don't know how to describe. I was dreaming of seeing the colors on a brindled mousies separate in patches of single color...don't we all dream of a tricolor, a reallio trullio tricolor that breeds predictably? Another thing about tris; you never get exactly the same thing twice.

Here's an example of the weird markings from the brindle/tri crosses. It looks as if the background faded to white and all that's
left is the brindling.



This boy a a variegated fox that came from a tri pairing that carried c^h. His dad is marked like this all over. One thing for sure, one will never see a tan tri.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'm sad to report that Boytoy died last night; he's in the last pic in the last bunch of photos I posted. He was a real sweetie and a cuddlebuddy and will be sorely missed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I failed to answer question earlier in this thread about what a sable tri would look like. Yes, that might be quite interesting; I haven't seen a sbale around here for years, though. You've got me thinking.....thanks....here's picture of a young beige/tri doe. She's about five and a half weeks old.

 

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Cait's question clearly asked about A^y, not A^vy.

Sable cannot be made with A^vy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What's your point? Are you assuming I don't know the difference between Ay and Avy? I feel that you are being purposefully oppositional without being at all informative. :|
 

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Nope, I'm pointing out your error. I'd expect you to do the same. :p

It's an easy error to make.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You remind me of another guy I used to know who couldn't allow that a woman might know as much about something as he did. Again, I take exception, as you did not read my post well. I said nothing at all about A^vy producing sable. The reason I haven't seen one is years is that I no longer have any lethal yellow meeces. One can't maintain working lines of every type of meece.

:arrow: I try to be good.
 

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And you remind me of somebody who hated Mexicans. See? Same logic. It fails, because pointing out an error has nothing to do with gender (or ethnicity) whatsoever and everything to do with accuracy on the topic you're discussing.

When an error is pointed out to you, the proper thing to do is accept it graciously and move forward. ;)

So, let's move forward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
'When an error is pointed out to you, the proper thing to do is accept it graciously and move on.'

I'm just looking for a clue as to why you seem to be so intent on showing me up. It's getting old. Why don't you just set the Forum to ignore my posts if you can't be cordial or at least polite. I appreciate meaningful criticism, but I don't think that's what's going on here. If it's just about being more right than I am, why bother? My most recent post about sables did not mention a specific type of allele. And since it's only blue-skying about what might be possible, why make a fuss?

Like I said, I try to be good.
 
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