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Amtma mousey Breeding Project [Large Images]

26K views 106 replies 10 participants last post by  Amtma Mousery 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi Everyone!
My name is Kan. My goal as a novice breeder is to improve the physical qualities of my Seal Point Siamese mice and strive for show quality. I use a basic strategy of vigilant line-breeding between Self Black and Seal Point Siamese. I began this strain as my first breeding project on December 17, 2014, in which I bred my founding pair, a Broken-marked Brindle buck and Blue Rex doe (Image 1 & 2).
Obviously, I started with pet shop mice that I acquired from a local store. Please understand that these mice are not nearly show quality or even close. After my 3rd generation, I out-cross my strain to a Seal Point Siamese buck (Image 3).

I am approximately on my 7th generation and very pleased with my current results. My primary focus is to improve proper type, specifically ears, body, and head shape. Mean while, gradually developing shading and coloring within the Seal Point Siamese mice. My immediate objective is to improve the darkening of feet within my Seal Point Siamese, in which I am line breeding to an alternative doe outside my strain (Image 4 & 5). After proper quality of coloring and shading has been established, I will begin focusing on size and other minor improvements, such as my clearly lacking tails.

I have included images of my current mice. All mice shown have been owned or bred by me. Enjoy!

Image 1: Blue Rex doe
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Image 2: Broken-marked Brindle buck
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Image 3: Siamese Outcross buck
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Image 4: Siamese doe with improved points
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Image 5: Siamese doe with improved points
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#29 ·
Update December 24, 2016:

Happy Holidays!

My mice are doing well. The Mycoplasma outbreak has completely subdued with presently no current infections. I have noticed that mice who are introduced to the disease at a young age (pinkies) are more likely to grow an immunity as they mature. Since my last update, I have tripled my stock holding capacity as I plan to expand my Black line and develop my Roan line.

Future Plans:
For the next few generations, I will not be breeding Black to Siamese any longer. I want to improve each line separately, within their own phenotype. After a few generations, I will decide which one created better results.

Additionally, I am going to begin establishing my Roan line. I personally dislike the Merle coat variation (black spots with Roan), thus I immediately cull them. I am going to focus upon Roan and attempt to establish a Roan pure strain that does not produce Merle. Although as far as I am aware, it has been stated that the results of Roan and Merle are primarily random.
In regards to my Roan gene:
-It is not homozygous lethal
-Merle is slightly more dominant than Roan
-Roan X Roan results in significantly less Merle
-The shading of the Roan coat is often slightly determined by the color of the parents
-Average litter size is 11 or 12
My favorite combination is light Roan carrying Siamese. As the points from the Siamese causes slight darkening of the Roan pattern of the nose which gives the mouse more shading and depth.

Present Status:
I somewhat miscalculated my mouse pregnancies for this session. I currently have about 18 litters, with 7 mice per litter. 126 pups in total.
This most recent breeding session was only for my Blacks and Roans. I have 3 litters dedicated specifically for Roan. The next breeding sessions, which will be in early January, will be for my Siamese mice.

Within my Roan mice, I have also noticed a pattern where some lighter Roans will have a white spot on the top of their head. It seems it is a recessive allele dependent on homozygous Roan. It does not disperse or change form significantly as the mouse matures. I will most likely choose to pursue this physical trait of a white head spot as I personally find it appealing and unique.

I have already chosen my future studs for breeding session in January: 1 Siamese, 2 Blacks, 2 Roans. I will have pictures in my next post.
 
#30 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update February 20, 2017:

My recent generation has produced offspring (specifically two Siamese bucks) with significantly improved ears and good type. I strive to implement their genes throughout my lines in the next breeding session, then return focus upon my previous agendas. My next breeding session will be conducted in early March, and will include primarily of the Black and Roan lines.

Roan:

I will be breeding all my Roan does to the Roan stud named 'Prince', the white roan with a headspot pictured above. I want to develop my Roans to solid white-ticked coats with white headspots. Once achieving this goal, I will shift to type and size.

Black:

My population of Blacks have decreased in the last generations due to lacking results. I currently do not have a Black stud, as no good quality Black male was produced. In the next breeding session, I will be mating my 5 month old Black does to my best Siamese buck. I will evaluate the results and decide from there for future direction of my Black line.

Siamese:

I have multiple pregnant and birthing does. My Siamese is gradually improving. I was not fully satisfied with my most recently bred stud as he lacked color. He has since been retired and replaced by the two upcoming Siamese bucks as stated above. The next Siamese breeding session will not occur until April - May.

Below are pictures of my does, some are pregnant. Sorry, I did not have time to take pictures of my bucks or individual photos.

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#33 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update March 19, 2017:

The breeding project has been uneventful since my last update. The pups continue to mature, in preparation for the next breeding cycle.

Current population is approximately:
200 Siamese
50 Roan
30 Black

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#34 ·
Update April 11, 2017:

Stock Selection:
Since my last update, I have reduced my current stock population to approximately:
12 Roan Does
1 Roan Buck "Prince"
1 PEW

20 Black Does
5 Black Bucks

30 Siamese Does
4 Siamese Bucks

I will continue to breed. The reduction of my stock was solely to increase selection quality as I try to consolidate the gene pool (leaning the fat). Additionally, I plan to do some major breeding this spring and summer, so I need the space.

Buck Offspring:
My recent bucks from the last generation for Siamese and Black show improved ears and type, which I am focusing on right now. I have selected the stud for each variation. I am temporarily disregarding shade/points and color. Once, I have bred in a proper type and ears in my gene pool, I will begin focusing on size and color.

I have noticed that mice are born with muscular or non-muscular ears. What I mean by this, is that some mice can flex their ears forward more than others. Overall, this creates a better appearance to the mouse, which most show-quality mice exhibit. Although, flex ears does not affiliate with large ears. Some mice can have large ears, but can not move them forward, rather they remain close to their skull. I noticed this trait of 'flex ears' at 4-6 weeks of age in my mice. I have begun to remove all mice from my breeding program that do not exhibit that physical characteristic.

Roan Experimentation:
I have put 'Prince' to the side. For my next breeding cycle, I have incorporated a PEW buck to breed with my Roan and Merle does. I am curious to see the results. I am hoping it may produce lighter/white Roans. Additionally, the PEW buck has larger ears than my white Roan stud.

Pet Store Closed-Down:
The pet store that I acquired my original stock from in 2014 recently closed down. In result, I do not have access to any fancy mice except for Petco and Petsmart. I never had the intention to use an out cross from a pet store, but the closure of the pet store did have an impact on me because it was my origin of becoming attached to mice and studying the variations (this pet store had a large variety of coats, although none show quality). Just seems like a realization of time passing and departure of a memorable location.
 
#36 ·
Update May 7, 2017:

I have continued to reduce my fancy mice population. I am restarting my strains (Seal Point Siamese, Self Black, Roan/Merle) with a minimal selection of my best quality mice. Thereafter, I will slowly build up to my previous numbers.

In the last dozen generations, I would keep/breed the top 30% of my stock. This generation, I have limited to keeping/breeding the top 5% of my stock. I refer this as a "stock renewal".

Stock Renewal:
I have decided to distribute focus between individual breeding groups. I will improve type among three Black does, while maintaining homozygous Black. Thereafter, hopefully cross breeding to my well-colored Black doe or her offspring.

I have decided to keep three of my previous best Siamese does (sisters) from two generations ago. They are listed as 'general'. They do not excel in any specific physical characteristic but their overall phenotype is viable for my breeding program. Additionally, they are very tamed/docile and almost 2 years old, so they will become pets after they are retired from breeding.

I have kept three of my best-shaded Siamese does and one well-typed Siamese doe, who is also the youngest at two months of age.

Finally, I have my Merle/Roan line. I personally dislike the Merle coat.
I will designate one sub-line strictly for breeding only Roan coats. This will originate from my three remaining Roan does. I will continue to breed my main line, which can be Merle or Roan, eventually cross-breeding mice from the Roan-only sub-line.

Total Adult Stock Population: 15 Adult Fancy Mice
1 Black Doe (Color)
3 Black Does (Type)

1 Siamese Doe (Type)
3 Siamese Does (Color)
3 Siamese Does (General)

1 Merle Doe (Type)
3 Roan Does (Color)
 
#37 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update May 27, 2017:

My new tank set up! It is safe, high surface area, sturdy, aesthetically appealing...

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I am only kidding. This was only a temporary stacking while I cleaned their tanks and the rodent room.

The stock renewal is going well and the majority being completed. I only have 2 more litters, 4 bucks, and a few does that I am waiting to mature for removal transfer.

The "one well-typed Siamese doe, who is also the youngest at two months of age" has matured very well. Her ear placement/size and type is phenomenal. She had an accidental litter of five females a few weeks ago. I am not sure how she became pregnant or who the father is- although he was Siamese, as all the offspring are Seal Point Siamese. It is upsetting that she did not have any boys... I would like a new Siamese stud. Regardless, I will be breeding the majority of her daughters- combining them with the recent-born offspring of my other Siamese does.

I have three Roans, believed to be sisters. One of the Roans has a better ear placement and lighter color, which I prefer. But she seems not as 'active' and a bit laid back. I like to breed mice that are constantly on the wheel, fast, aggressive, and overall increased physical motor skills. The third Siamese has a black spot on her face, but all other physical attributes are viable. I'll likely breed all three to my Siamese stud soon.

I also have a Merle doe with good ears. I dislike the Merle coat, but I am making an exception because she has optimal ears and type. I am not going to breed her until I acquire a better stud.

My Blacks just had their litters but I am hoping to acquire a new Black stud too. Hopefully...

In my recent litters that I still have, I noticed a reappearance of the white head-spot. The hoppers that have the head-spot, all have a similar grey-smudged like color. I assume it is some form of Roan. I will have to wait until they have their final molt. But I do plan to revive my head-spot strain, dedicating one line to breeding only white head-spots. We will see later in time.
 

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#38 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update June 29, 2017:

The mice are doing well. I do not have any litters at the moment. I am waiting for my young male mice (approximately 24) to mature, and to select the studs. I have seen a noticeable ear and type improvement within the last generation.

My last White Roan buck died pre-maturely two weeks ago. I was unable to breed 'Prince', as I discovered that one of his ears was not equally placed. I am not sure what the necessary genotype is to create white Roan. Breeding BEW/Himilayan to a Roan does not create White Roan. So I assume it is some form of recessive gene within the Roan trait.

I currently have 3 Roan bucks, and 4 Seal Point Siamese bucks that are breeding quality. In addition, a blue mouse appeared in my last generation, which has never occurred before. He originated from my Roan line. He is a solid grey/blue color all around, no ticks or underbelly coloring. I may try to breed him to a Roan female and speculate the results.

I am still undecided whether I should discontinue my black line or not. Their coloring is horrible and they are no longer needed as out-crosses since I have switched to Siamese X Siamese breeding. I will likely merge them into my Roan line to beef up the size and type.

Pictures of upcoming Seal Point Siamese bucks:

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#42 · (Edited by Moderator)
Pictures of Roan Mice:

I have provided pictures of both White/light, and Black/dark Roan. These are pictures of White Roans, notice the increased place of white hairs, very light blue/grey coloring, the coat is overall much more ticked and does not have any solid point locations- almost resembling a variegated coat. The white fox underbelly for a White Roan is much less noticeable than a Black Roan, as seen below.

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#43 · (Edited by Moderator)
Below are pictures of comparison between White and Black Roans.

The first picture is of Prince (White Roan) and his brother (Black Roan).

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The next two pictures are of two juvenile Roan mice. You can see that within the first few molts, the coat differences appear. White Roans are also slightly more prone to smaller size than Black Roans.

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Finally, these two pictures are of adult female Roans.

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#44 · (Edited by Moderator)
Here are a few more pictures of sibling White Roans. These pictures were taken a few months ago with an actual camera, thus the quality is much better. I love the metallic effect and shine the Roans have. No pictures I posted have been modified/edited, other than picture dimensions.

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#45 ·
Update July 21, 2017:

My mice are doing very well. I currently have 3 Seal Point Siamese bucks and 1 Roan buck. They are all very well developed to be used for my next studs in the fall.

I am currently breeding my Merle stud to my last two Black does. I have completely merged my Black lines into my Siamese and Roan lines.

After research, I have decided to abandon the pursuit of head-spots for my Roan line. I now view such physical trait as a fault within the Roan variety.

White Tail-tip:
I have not seen a white tail-tip for over 12 litters. I believe I have relatively removed the faulty gene from my population. Average litter size remains at 7-11.
I did acquire 2 runts and 1 mentally autistic mouse during these litters.

Genetic Observation:
I have realized that there is often some form of genetic delay between genotype and phenotype. When breeding two individuals for a specific trait, the gene will not appear within the first generation offspring, but often the second generation thereafter.

This is confusing because in assumption that the gene is recessive, and is present between both parents. The gene is homozygous, thus the offspring should exhibit it. I realize that such genetic ideology is oversimplified and that many alleles must be factored within such equation. I am not sure how to go about such finding. But I now remain aware that often, the phenotypical result of focused pairings is not present until the 2nd or 3rd generation within the same strain.

Current Approximate Population:
5 virgin Siamese does
3 virgin Roan doe
3 pregnant Roan does
3 pregnant Black does
3 nursing Siamese does

1 Siamese stud
1 Merle stud
3 Siamese bucks
1 Roan buck

Siamese does are pictured on Page 4. Roan does are pictured above.

Long-term Plan:
Significant improvement of ears has been established within my population. I hope to have proper ears genetically solidified within the next three generations. During the months of October to December, I am going to temporarily delay my breeding sessions. I want to allow my mice to fully mature to analyze the current status of their development.

In January, I will return to mass breeding until June. During these mass breeding sessions, I will expand my Siamese and Roan lines for size and color.

My Siamese line has an approximate two year head start compared to my Roans in comparison to overall size and type. I will incorporate occasional cross-overs but I strive to maintain the lines distinctly separate. I hope to have color and size solidified and established by June, 2019. Thereafter, I will focus upon tail lengths and tail sets as the final improvement of my lines. I hope to achieve this task in the year 2020 and begin showing in the Fancy Mouse Breeders' Association.
 
#46 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update August 20, 2017:

Siamese Line:
In my last stud decision, I chose a buck, named "Everest", that had distinct erect ears and ear placement but lacked in color. I really want to establish proper erect ears in my gene pool before improving anything else. I am mating "Everest" to 2 Siamese does (pictured below) and 1 Roan doe.

I have 2 additional Siamese does serving as nannies. In a month, I will mate these 2 Siamese does either to "Everest" or his best son.

Roan Line:
I have bred my best Roan, named "Roman", to 4 Siamese does- good type, minimal ears, bad color. The offspring of this generation will serve as my foundation for my upcoming Roan line.
Two of the does have already had their litters. I discovered 4 partially eaten corpses of pinkies in the tank, which is concerning because milk was present in the stomach remains. I will keep monitor but maintain my current colony breeding arrangement.

After weaning their young, three of these four Siamese does will be transferred back to my Siamese line and bred with my current Siamese stud, named "Everest".

Recently, I have also taken an interest in the lethal A^y, specifically Red coat. I personally dislike culling but understand its utilization, and appreciate the color of Red mice. I hope to acquire and begin breeding the variation when the opportunity arises.

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#49 ·
Update October 3, 2017:

My mice are doing well. I was successful in expanding my Roan/Merle line without negative health developments. However, type and size was relatively lost in the process. I will continue to breed Seal Point Siamese and Roan/Merle.

I acquired an outcross buck from a nearby breeder to improve size and type. The genotype of the buck is piebald, chinchilla, and black- which resulting coat variation I seemed to have temporarily forgotten. He definitely is not an optimal outcross in regards to color, but he has significantly better ears, size, and tail. I am breeding him to my Siamese does, groups of 4. Thereafter, I will work back towards my preferred genotypes of Siamese and Roan/Merle. In addition, I plan to acquire new Dove breeding stock from maintained English mouse lines in early 2018.

I will continue to post updates but can no longer post pictures on this forum. I no longer have the available time to edit and crop the images. I will be posting all my images on https://lakemousery.wixsite.com/home

Current adult stock population (approximate):
-30 Roan does
-10 Roan bucks

-8 Siamese does
-1 Siamese buck

-4 Black does
-1 Black buck
 
#50 ·
You don't need to crop/edit the photos, you can just use a free hosting site like

https://postimages.org/

select the size you want, hit upload, then just put the direct link in the tag.

Your new edition sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean by having chinchilla and black, chinchilla is a variety that is A/at cch/cch and as such cannot have black.

Sometimes cch alone can be called chinchilla in which case a black mouse with one copy is just a black mouse carrying chinchilla (in which case you'll get 50% black 50% burmese when bred to your siamese or if cch/cch then a sepia (so the outcome would be 100% burmese)

Good luck with your projects and very exciting getting the dove
 
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